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MESSAGEBOARD ARCHIVES

Subject: Treatment From: Sweetheart Date Posted: 02/07/03 Entered From: 66.25.88.151 Hi, Is there treatment for PA and commitment phobia? If so, what is it? Been going through a relationship that is CP and possibly PA. Been really rough and after the breakup he calls 2 days later wanting me to come back and after we talked he is agreeable to get treatment to help him. Does anybody know the success rate of treating PA and CP? I really appreciate any information. Thank You From: kim Date Posted: 02/08/03 Entered From: 67.25.78.89 I would say give him a chance.. however, do not get caught up in the "dance" .. that is where things go well for awhile just enough to hook you again, then he reverts to old behaviors.. pretty soon this is a dance marathon!! back and forth... you leave, he promises, things go well, he reverts, you leave, he promises, etc.... it can and will go on forever.. If you see CONSISTENT improvement I would try to have patience but also know yourself and what your limits are.. how long do you want to give it,,,, are you willing to stick it out, what are you going to do if he doesn't show some growth in a reasonable amount of time.. etc.. I think the key is knowing YOU ... so you can make decisions, etc.... His success rate depends solely on him and how hard he is willing to try... FOR HIMSELF.. if he is doing it just to please you what will occur is the moment he is mad at you he will pull out all of the old behaviors to punish you.. he has to know this is about improving HIS life.. From: Sweetheart Date Posted: 02/08/03 Thank you Kim for responding to my post regarding treatment. I realize I have to be strong for myself, but it is so hard to keep things straight in my head. He is so helpless and confused about his issues. I have tried to get him into therapy, but he wont go because he knows a lot about psychology and doesn't think they will be able to tell him anything he doesn't already know. I have tried to explain to him that he knows the clinical side of it but not the other side. Stubborn Man! Anyway, do you know anything about anti depressants being used for this condition? Thanks again for your help. From: Laura Date Posted: 02/09/03 Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Sweetheart, As Lynn said, if your PA also has coexisting depression (mine did, and yes, it is not uncommon), then antidepressants are useful for treating the depression. However, they do nothing for the underlying PA personality, nor will they make him more willing to commit. These are totally separate critters. The only way a PA can change is if he REALLY wants to, and is willing to work hard to change, not because somebody else wants him to, but because HE wants to and HE thinks he needs to. Unfortunately, this rarely happens. PA's blame others for their difficulties, therefore why should THEY need to change? As far as him now wanting to reconcile now that you are resistant to committing. This is classic for CP's. This is part of the dance. You pull away, they try to reel you in. Once they reel you in, they pull away. And on and on it goes. If you think about it, you probably will already have noticed this pattern. And the general pattern is that they are on their BEST behavior during the courtship. Once you tie the knot, and they know they have you where they want you, the PA behavior intensifies considerably. From: Lynnw Date Posted: 02/09/03  24.229.41.84 Sweetheart; My husband is PA and also was depressed (these two conditions are very commonly found together). He went on antidepressants, and says they make him feel much better and more confident. From my perspective, he went from grumpy, withdrawn, and silent to more openly angry, irrational, and arrogant. It's the underlying attitudes that have to change to make him a decent person. From: Georgia lDate Posted: 02/08/03  From: 12.90.186.31 Sweetheart, if you are sure the man is PA, be very glad he is also CP and run for your life. I didn't and I've been doing the dance 25 years, but not for much longer. If he really is PA, not much will help, in my experience. He is doing you a HUGE favor by being CP. If others have had a better experience, please post and let Sweetheart know that. I'd like her to have a balanced picture if there is a balanced picture for her to have. From: Sweetheart Date Posted: 02/09/03 Entered From: 66.25.88.151 Thank you Georgia for the advise. I don't know what will happen. But I am for sure looking out for myself. He really wants to try, but I am the one that wont commit now...LOL Funny how the tables turn. I wonder if this is how a CP starts!?!?!?! Scary thought Subject: Very tired of being sad From: lynnh Date Posted: 02/07/03  Entered From: 67.217.181.254 Can anyone make any suggestions that might help me? I broke up with BF 21/2 months ago. I still feel very sad and miss him terribly. He is not as bad as some of the men that I've read on your post. I can't but think what it would have been like if I'd married him. I'm having a difficult time with my denial. I keep telling myself that it wasn't so bad. If that were true, I would be with him. He was withholding, never showed any emotions, when he hurt me, he didn't even seem to care. I always felt like I was walking on eggshells and never was myself completely. He had alot of good qualities that I enjoyed very much. He never made any demands on me, we both enjoyed each other company, we enjoyed walking in the park, working out together, watching movies. We were always kissing and holding each other.Sex not so good. It's so very confussing. I guess what I need help with is how do you get over the relationship? It hurts so very much. Everyday I think ok this is it, NO MORE HURTING. Yea right it starts all over again. From: thatolepinto Date Posted: 02/08/03 Entered From: 64.12.107.171 Lynnh - Your experience is so much like mine. It helped me to look at this site, post messages about what was happening to me, and read the responses. It will get better over time. I know that doesn't help now, but in my experience that is true. Be kind to yourself. I've learned that because he kept me always reaching for the carrot and never getting it, that my feelings kept intensifying. Who knows what I would have felt for him if I had reached the carrot. For now, I'm doing my best to stay away from him and allowing my feelings for him to die. From: lynnh Date Posted: 02/08/03 Entered From: 67.217.181.221 That's exactly what I'm doing. I believe I am doing the best that I can by taking care of myself. I reading all the books that I can get my hands on. I started to go to an Al-anon meeting on Wed. I know that will help. I guess your right it takes time. I so tired of feeling bad. A friend of my said something that I never thought of . She told me that I will get over and him and become happy again, but he will stay the same. Even if he is with someone else, he still will not be a happy man inside. From: Kathryn Date Posted: 02/08/03  From: 68.42.174.241 Why did you break up? How long were you together? "Time" is the only way to heal a broken heart (or your unrequited love for him). As far as the abuse and support, maybe consider counseling, web support, books on emotional healing or even support groups. This site helps me because I hear from & read about women who can relate because they've been in the same situation (PA relationships). Right now, you may only be thinking of the good times you had together, when indeed the bad times are the reason you're not together. You're probably thinking of all the "what ifs", have you done everything you could do on your own to preserve the relationship? If so, then you have to realize it is up to him to change and if he can or wants to change then he would do that. Have you found other things to do to fill the void of him being out of your life? I was with a guy for almost 5 years who is Passive Aggressive and Verbally Abusive. I stayed because I thought he would change, but in the end he blames me and doesn't accept responsibility even though he's made so many promises to change over the years. I did everything I could do and even more than he deserved to preserve the relationship. We went to counseling (4 different counselors), still no consistent change. He's made only short-term efforts to improve, I forgave him over and over again for the same things and they never stopped. The fact is that I still have a hard time accepting that he didn't keep his promises because after all the time & love I put into him. It still bothers me that I am unappreciated or that he couldn't love me the way I deserve to be loved or the way he promised me he would. He always told me I deserved better, but he never treated me better. Some days I wake up and notice I am all alone and feel sick to my stomach, I cry uncontrollably and ask myself "why" over and over again. It's sickening to realize that I am suffering because I believed in him, while he is out living in "Merry Wonderland". The fact is, that time, strength, God, & the development of real love for ourselves so we won't accept less from anyone else is what we need to do. It takes time, but we will get there and we will look back at this, like - why in Hell did I waste so much time in "him"? I pray everyday that I get to that point soon, cause I have never in my life experienced pain like this. There are other sources on this site that will motivate you. Such as the page with all the self-help books listed that may help you. There is also a story by Dr. Phil where he describes an ex as an old couch with a hole in it and how we hang on to things not good for us. I would read that as well. I broke up with my boyfriend on Dec 28, 2002. I've read books that has helped. My favorites are: "Too Good to Leave/To Bad to Stay" by Mira Kirshenbaum and "After the Break Up" by Angela Watrous & Carole Honeychurch & "Women who Love Too Much". My heart goes out to you, believe me when I say I know how it feels to yearn for someone because you love them but know they're not good for you. You've taken the first step and I promise you it will get better in time. The hurting you feel will get better overtime atleast he can't hurt you anymore if you completely shut him out of your life. Try to stay busy, healthy and nurture yourself. PS. "How to Mend a Broken Heart" by Dick Innes is good to. It talks about facing the pain we experience as we move on. Take Care of yourself! IS  there hope fo a PA to heal? From: Cindy Date Posted: 02/05/03 Entered From: 216.164.47.245 I have been been married to my PA H for over 9 yrs. We have been through therapy together & now he is going to a separate therapist as well as me. He has changed for the better quite a bit but still has a way to go. Bottom line is he still can be difficult to live w/ & I once again find myself rethinking if I should stay or leave. All I've read so far are unsuccessful stories. I know PA is complex but can it ever be cured? Thanks, Cindy From: Laura  Date Posted: 02/06/03  Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Cindy, The bottom line is that PA can not be "cured", but it can be managed. PA is a basic personality, and nobody can turn into a completely different person. Much like an alcoholic who is in recovery, as opposed to recovered. An alcoholic is always an alcoholic and always susceptible to taking that first drink. If your H truly is motivated to make changes, because he truly understands that he has a problem, and not because he is trying to manipulate you into staying or convince you that he is making an effort, then there is hope that he can make some livable and long-term changes, but it will be an on-going process, not a one-time fix. You get to decide if the changes he is able to make are enough to satisfy your needs in the relationship. You will probably need to lower your expectations, PA's have a field day thwarting expectations. I found that expecting nothing was the best route, they only caused conflicts in our relationship, and left me angry, hurt, resentful, and frustrated when he didn't follow through. If you want to stay, I recommend the book, Living with the Passive-Agressive Man, it has some great pointers on what to expect and how to deal with PA behaviors. Subject: To Laura From: Cindy Date Posted: 02/07/03  From: 216.164.47.245 Thank you for your posts Laura. You sound like a therapist in your first one w/ a lot of sound advice. I was sad to see your last post though (not sad for you but for me) Had your H made considerable changes but not enough to fulfill your needs? How long were you married? Thanks! Subject: Re:To Laura From: Laura Date Posted: 02/07/03 Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Cindy, We were married for 22 years. No, my H did not make many changes in therapy. Yes, he made some superficial ones, but he was mainly in therapy just to get me off his back, to try to manipulate me into not leaving, not because he really wanted to change. He wanted to be able to say that he was "trying" but really he wasn't. If your husband HAS made considerable, sustainable changes, and really is trying, but not enough yet, then your question becomes a tough one as far as how much longer do you wait. You might want to discuss with your therapist what you CAN live with, whether he/she thinks it is possible, and how long he/she thinks it will take to reach that point. In my own situation, I found it useful when we were in counseling to set a deadline for how long I was willing to wait to see changes before I bailed. But in the end, my deadline wasn't fixed in stone, I gave it a little extra time until I finally reached the point where I just "knew" that it would never be enough for me and I had to leave. People don't leave until they are ready. In hindsight I wish I had left years ago, but the reality is that I wasn't ready yet, I hadn't even accepted that there was something seriously wrong with our marriage. And our therapist had basically told me that this was as good as it was going to get, and I knew that she was right, so I needed to either accept him as he was or leave. Ten years is way too long in my opinion, another year might be a more reasonable time frame, but ultimately it is up to you how long you are willing to wait. Meanwhile, use the time to learn how to take care of you. In these relationships, our self-respect and self-esteem are the casualties, and we have become trained to ignore what we want and need, and how we feel. Good luck, I hope that everything works out for you. And by the way, yes I was in the mental health field for almost 20 years. Subject: Re:Is there any hope for a PA to heal? From: Cindy Date Posted: 02/07/03 Entered From: 216.164.47.245 Thank you to all who responded to my question. It is very very hard for me to leave since my H has made considerable changes & is not as bad of a PA as some of you describe on this board. I feel as though I am stuck since I feel like if I leave I will always wonder if he would have healed further so we could have had a truly happy marriage. The opposite spectrum is that I don't want to waste another 10 yrs. waiting for further change if it's just not going to happen. I think I must set a deadline for myself & even start documenting things, like how many good days there are vs. bad days and take it from there. From: April Posted: 02/05/03 Entered From: 24.166.128.215 I'm not sure about cured. If he's showing improvement, then that's more than a lot of us get. This stuff goes wayyyyy back to childhood so it goes deep and has been there a long time. Please hang in there and empower yourself with all the knowledge you can so you don't get hooked when he tries to engage you in a PA issue. From: KIM Date Posted: 02/06/03 Entered From: 168.166.190.219 Bottom line Cindy... if he wants to.... any changes any any of our lives only occur if we really want them, and we work hard.. you can threaten, you can cry and beg but unless your husband sees this as a problem, and a problem for himself CREATED by his actions he will go on blaming you and/or anyone else in his path for the rest of his life... Although the p.a.'s behavior is extremely childish, and can be managed much in the same way a child's actions are, getting thru to them to see that this is their problem is extremely difficult.. mostly because of their uncanny ability to turn the tides and make all of the problems appear to be your fault or someone elses.. they appear to themselves and to outsiders as victims of others' anger, unreasonableness, etc.. never recognizing the part they play in causing these reactions in others... it is very cyclical..and the only chance of them ever really being able to see their part is for you to stop playing your part in the p.a. games... and that is (for one) reacting to them.. there are more but that is the most important one....the other important aspect of this (and until we learn this we play into their games and victimhood EVERYTIME) is to stop expecting better or anything from them.. The p.a. loves nothing better than to THWART any expectations (perceived or real) from those that they see as authority (wives and husbands definitely fit the bill).... it is almost as if they wait to see what you want so they can go out of their way to either not do it, do it slowing, screw it up, (all the while telling you that they will do it)... this is their power base and this is how they get back at you for what they see as being in authority... Some have difficulty in jobs and some play out their p.a. in their home life.. some ..both.. should you do HIS jobs for him.. certainly not.. but on the other hand, learning not to expect more from him will reduce his opportunity to play the games with you.. Some folks NEVER get this and they keep trying to make the p.a. do what they want them to do and naturally the p.a. just digs his/her heels in even deeper.. oh, they may do the one thing, but believe me, it will pop back up elsewhere.. like trying to keep a ball under water.. your husband will seek help when he sees he has no one else to blame and his life is miserable enough for him to see that it is he that needs to make changes .. not the rest of the world.. From: Stacy Date Posted: 02/06/03  Entered From: 24.162.4.116 I can't emphasize how correct Kym is when she says that they know just where to hit us and we fall into the trap so quickly . After my p.a. boyfriend sensed that I had moved forward emotionally, he tried to edge back into my life in such a subtle and positive way that I immeiately started wondering if I had misjudged the entire last few months when things blew up. Fortunately, therapy has kept me grounded, but one of the most cunning things they do is figure out what you need from them-what you need most emotionally, and play on that. For me, I needed more time together since our time was so limited. Over the last two weeks he invited me over several times, cooked dinner, and invited me over after work yesterday. Then, when I got there, he acted as if I had stayed too long and he didn't understand I was coming over for more than an hour on the way home from work...he was the one who invited me and hinted we would be dining together. Thanks goodness for therapy-I quickly left when I realized that things were going to be my fault for misunderstanding again. The best approach for me seems to be never confront him about anything since it frustrates him; don't try to make plans with him too far in advance or that stresses him; don't try to make plans too close to the date since that pressures him; wait for him to call all the shots. Dealing with people like this is exhausting. He is not all bad-someone would have observed our interaction last night and thought he was a wonderful person; that is what makes it so hard. I just know better now. They make us doubt ourselves and our own judgment. If they were all bad it would be easier to leave. It is the carrots they throw out that get us to stay. The book eveyone is suggesting is wonderful. From: maria Date Posted: 02/07/03 Entered From: 40.0.96.2 Why do I get the feeling that those of us who live with PAs spend our life walking around on tip-toes so we don't upset our partners? Why do we have to supress how we feel the anger, denial and hurt? Sometimes I feel I am living on a stage and I am just acting out my part. From: KIM Date Posted: 02/07/03  From: 168.166.190.219 . you are so right... I remember feeling the same way... Not just the walking on eggshells but I never felt comfortable.. sort of like I was on stage or display.. I remember the short time we saw a therapist.. I said something about that and the therapist hit the nail on the head when he said, "sort of like wearing a red dress to a funeral." I said, "EXACTLY!" We are trained in very subtle ways from the beginning to walk on eggshells.. by slight comments about former relationships to the various looks of either anger or victimhood... I remember one time actually rehearsing what I was going to say because my ex kept leaving large glasses of drinks on top of a t.v. and we had a cat.. would not have taken much to knock it over and short out the t.v. but I actually remember thinking about the best way to approach him on this HUGE issue.. shouldn't have been.. should have been very simple.. Everything was like that.. I was trained quickly not to approach him with anything that might have not been to his liking.. he was never verbally abusive but the looks said it all.. sometimes I would respond in anger or frustration for example if I said something about the bills or something and I would have "disturbed his t.v. viewing" by bringing it up... One time I asked him if he would like to do them for awhile.. P.A.s resent just about anything like that and they train us from the beginning not to disturb them... From: Stacy Date Posted: 02/07/03 Entered From: 24.162.4.116 Everytime I read one of your messages I see myself...My p.a. got me so confused that if I wanted to ask him a simple thing-like, "do you want to meet for lunch" I had to spend days figuring out when I should call him (not too far in advance; not too close to the actual date). With every other person in my life, i just pick up the phone without thinking about it and ask if they want to have lunch. Yet, I didn't want to ask "the wrong way" for fear that I would trigger something. Even in a good phase, I now realize how much I adapted my own behavior just to eliminate conflict over incredibly simple issues. Does it still hurt as I get over the relationship? Absolutely. But I don't feel so drained all the time. Subject: ONE MORE COMMENT ON THAT SUBJECT From: KIM Date Posted: 02/07/03 Entered From: 168.166.190.219 Message: There was a time when I was astounded (after seeing clearly and giving it a lot of thought) that ANYONE would expect another human being to remain in a relationship with them when they went out of their way NOT TO HAVE ONE WITH YOU, expected you to do much more than the lions share of the work (in all respects, home, relationship, children, bills, job, etc..) while they sat there doing nothing (or everything on their terms and in their time) with the total misconception that they should be left alone to do as they pleased when they pleased (with this I am referring to not just in the relationship/home but their comings and goings in life in general as well) never have anything "SAID" to them about ANYTHING.... just leave them alone and while you handle everything and they do nothing or very little or what they "please.... At first I was very angry that someone could have the unmitigated audacity to even remotely think or expect this from another person.. but then when I started really looking at it, I found it almost ridiculously funny.... In fact I got to the point where I wanted to say, "what did you think you HAD or offered that would have made you feel or remotely THINK anyone would put up with all of that for little to nothing in return.. it truly boggles my mind and brings a smile of amusement to my lips as I write this...I shake my head in amazement of some folks in this life.. I truly do... Subject: Re:ONE MORE COMMENT ON THAT SUBJECT From: thatolepinto Date Posted: 02/08/03 Entered From: 64.12.107.171 Kim - That says it all. "everything on his terms and his timing." I've reached the point, too, where that is laughable. Also, I don't think these people can change at all. It is part of their personality. Best leave them to heaven. Subject: Re:Is there any hope for a PA to heal? From: Laura  Date Posted: 02/07/03 Entered From: 12.222.211.155 That reminds me of something my sister told me that ended up prompting a turning point in my marriage. She said, "Laura, I can't tell you whether to stay or to leave, but remember, life is not a dress rehearsal. If you don't like how it turns out, you don't get another chance to do it differently." I decided I wanted what was left of my life to be done differently, i.e. I left him. It has been difficult, but one of the best decisions I have ever made. From: JO    02/07/03  Entered From: 198.81.20.36 My biggest concern is the anger I feel towards my husband. After 31 yrs of marriage & raising 2 kids with their share of problems, I am wore out & angry knowing I now have the 3rd child to deal with. But after 31 yrs & 54 yrs old, I don't know if I want to start all over again. Does the anger ever go away? How do you deal with that aspect of it? Jo From: KIM Date Posted: 02/09/03 Entered From: 65.239.145.234 JO: I wasn't with my ex very long.. but long enough to have anger, resentment, frustration, etc.... I think there has to come a point where you put it behind you for YOU..not for him.. I can tell you that if I WANT to go there and dwell on it I can... but I chose not to, because it effects MY LIFE not his... he continues on doing as he pleases, being self-centered, attempting to manipulate siutations that behoove him.. (although he is better now than he use to be)..but it is still VERY obvious that He is number one, what he wants and what he does always comes first.. He has a child when it is convenient for him... I can get angry about it, but why... as I said, it only affects me.. not him... I believe certain things in life are out of our hands and in the hands of God.. and I am not going to spend the wonderful world given to me upset because someone is self-centered..... I chose not to let this upset me.. At least most of the time.. Subject: he's usingher to play me & vice versa From: northernbelle8 Date Posted: 02/04/03  Entered From: 172.146.156.217 is this PA behavior? The man I thought loved me has a thing going on with another woman. He began acting suspiciously so I read the yahoo messenger and he is saying all kinds of lies about me to another woman. I can't believe it. I am so hurt. he said she was just a internet friend. what do i do? From: KIM Posted: 02/04/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 doesn't matter if he is p.a. or not (can't tell by the little you have written) dump him... he is a liar, cheat and cannot be trusted.. Ask yourself if you want that in your life.... I know you are hurt.. but this isn't about YOU.. it is HIS problem.. He has probably done this many times before and will do it again after you are out of the picture.... I would walk away before you get in any deeper.. what is about to happen, is that you approach him, he whitewashes it, you accept it, then he does it again, and again.. each time you taking a little more and a little more.. then guess what happens next.. the next thing you know you have little to no self-esteem left because you have allowed yourself to be trampled on.. then you think only "he" can fix it by treating you right... NO.. only you can fix it by walking away from someone who didn't deserve your love to begin with.. and will he fix it.. no.. that is part of the game with folks like that.. and there again, it has nothing to do with you as a person, he would do it to anyone in his life.. and no you are not the special one that is going to get him to straighten out his life and fly right.. only HE can do that.. but not until he is miserable enough to accept responsibility for his own life and his own messes... From: Lee Date Posted: 02/04/03 Entered From: 139.177.224.100 You should not have to ask that question. If you are being lied about and cheated on then ofcourse -DUMP HIM. You deserve better. Everybody does. From: nothernbelle8  Date Posted: 02/04/03  Entered From: 172.162.160.197 well of course but what about his so-called ex-SO. she is being played just as hard as me. the things he says about her are awful and she is so loving towzards him. I read her emails to him--that's how I got this site. i feell so sorry for her. should i tell her? i have her email. he's also doing it to someone else. i wrote to her on her messenger thing. he needs to be ... oh i don't know. From: Jean  Date Posted: 02/04/03  Entered From: 172.131.19.64 Why would you waste your time? If her e-mails mention this site then she is already aware of who he really is. Do something nice for yourself instead of staying part of this man's life. By the way how did you get his password? From: northernbelle Posted: 02/05/03   Entered From: 172.148.30.96 he uses netscape it was just up o the computer. I guess i will just let it go... From: Jean Date Posted: 02/05/03  Entered From: 172.157.184.41 Makes you wonder why he did not even try to hide what he was doing?? From: NorthernBelle  Date Posted: 02/05/03  Entered From: 67.233.50.29 well, yes it does. but after reading here maybe not. From: Jennifer  Date Posted: 02/05/03  Entered From: 170.211.52.253 Does he live in Florida? I want to know if I am one of the "other women?" If I am, he has several "internet friends." From: NorthernBelle8  Posted: 02/05/03  Entered From: 172.135.135.176 No... not florida. Wisconsin. his email was full of it and he had several messenger services, it was just so unreal. From: Lee   Date Posted: 02/06/03  Entered From: 139.177.224.100 Being a lier, a cheat, and deceptive doesn't mean you are PA, but a lot of people who are PA are liers, cheats and deceptive. Being PA is aggression that is passively played out. Anger directed towards a party that usually doesn't realize what is happening because it is a stealth bomb. Subject: all i know is From: NorthernBelle  Posted: 02/10/03  Entered From: 67.233.17.167 his former So sent himan email with a link to this site and I came here to see what was up. I'm not sure. I don't know him well enough but if I was to guess, I'd say she is probably right. Just by what he was saying about her to the other woman and me. Her emails shoed a very different person than the one I he told me she was. I'm gone from that jerk. Subject: Re:he's usingher to play me & vice versa From: Thatolepinto Date Posted: 02/04/03  Entered From: 205.188.193.23 Kim - your resonse is right on. I took my boyfriend back numerous times and wound up being hurt again and again. I thought I loved him so I kept going back. Please give me the strength to keep away from him. I believe I've turned the corner, but sometimes I wish for what could have been. From: KIM  Date Posted: 02/05/03    Entered From: 168.166.190.219 READ THE TRAP.... on the site (will leave the url for the sitemap below)... That is part of the game, that is WHY we want(ed) so badly .... because it was something just quite out of our grasp or so we were made to think.. and that if we did things a bit differently, a little better, then we could get it.. doesn't happen... WHY?! because they really do not have it to give....period.. or that they are afraid to give it... one way or the other you are NOT going to get it.... When you read that page, it will explain it to you.. also remember two things..... I remember when this dawned on me.. I kept thinking because he was the one who made me unhappy that he was the one to MAKE me happy again.. that is VERY faulty thinking.... Ask yourself this.... were you happy BEFORE you met him... sure you were... YOU have to make yourself happy again... Yes being involved with him did make you unhappy but I think it is natural for us to have this faulty thinking.. The other thing.. Think of one thing that you wanted in your life (that you DID get... anything), think back, how good it sounded, how wonderful you thought it would make your life once you got it... all of those wonderful expectations... now think about how once you got it.. it WAS great for a moment or two but after awhile you realize that it didn't hold all that you thought it held, did it? NO.. that is WHY we think these relationships or so great.. IT IS IN OUR IMAGINATION.. and in the expectations that the emotionally unavailable person sets up for us.... Take a look at that article.. It explains it SO WELL... KNOW THIS... no matter how many times you go back to him.. history WILL repeat itself.. if he had it to give, or if he wanted to give it.. he would have already done it..... Link URL: http://www.pa2.homestead.com/Sitemap.html Subject: Wow! From: June  Date Posted: 02/03/03  From: 172.150.55.67 Thanks so much for hosting this site! What an eye-opener! I dated a guy for 8 months, mostly terrific. Just sometimes, he'd get angry/weird and threaten to break up with me and take his stuff home. Then he'd call and appologize, missed me terribly. Constantly asked "Do you like me?" which seemed weird, childlike, but was very verbal about his feelings and treated me well. Had a huge birthday party for me. (I thought it was nice but odd; now I understand about Grandstanding.) Also very jealous of my male friends. Several times he had what I'd jokingly call "alien attacks." These would often involve a jealous episode; he'd pack. I think I was supposed to beg him to stay; instead, I helped him pack. Once he was gone for 10 minutes, but usually overnight before the phone call. He's 50, recently divorced, this is his first "serious" relationship since. We had a fight where he left and I locked him out. (He often stayed over, I have a nicer house and seldom went to his place). He got angry, then begged to return. I told him he could only do so if he worked on fair fighting, otherwise, there was no point. I found a dispute resolution agreement (and offered to work on any he found), he agreed to try to live by it. Not for long!! (He has since told a mutual friend that he viewed it as an attempt by me to control him!!) He often told me how much he loved me, wanted to be together, etc. I was a little stand-offish, it seemed too soon. He offered to do some work on my house, but then didn't show up. I asked whether he was trying to send me a message, if so, we didn't need to keep seeing each other. He quickly came over and helped. He got angry with me at several important parties, for no real reason, maybe I said the wrong thing, whatever, he accused me of antagonizing him (taking no responsibility for his behavior). But they were important to me, I was disappointed. We travelled several times, before each, he'd start a fight. He cancelled one trip, but I went anyhow and had a great time! He also sabbotaged my getting to several meetings, made me late. He'd get angry over things that happened days ago, hours ago, months ago. Not often, but I had a funny feeling, just couldn't get comfortable. It was confusing, here this nice man usually treated me so well, why wasn't I happier? Also, at social functions, I felt like I was on a short leash. If I left his side, he'd later accuse me of flirting with my male friends, or wanting to be with them. I couldn't reassure him enough. Finally, he had a long talk with me, told me he'd been close to proposing. I told him it was too soon, I needed to see some stability, let's see how things go. The next day, he went to my house while I was at work and removed his belongings. He also took back my Christmas present!! He emailed me that he wasn't getting his needs met, he was putting more into the relationship than I was. He'd taken what I'd said as a rejection. I felt that it was another power-play, he wanted me to come over and discuss it further. So, I didn't go, but went out with friends instead (the Christmas present really bugged me -- I needed support). I didn't take his phone calls, I needed some space and time to think. Then, someone anonymously sent me a picture of him in an ad looking for a "discrete relationship" and sex on a porn site!! I got on that site, and sure enough, there he was! He'd been active for at least a month (the whole time he was supposed to be working on the conflict resolution). He'd even emailed me about how magical the time with me was on the same day he posted there! We had so many conversations about fidelity, he wasn't interested in porn on the web, wanted to do more "couples" events and avoid "singles" ones! It was all lies! He finally caught me on the phone (20 calls and 4 days later -- I have caller id) and I told him I had no idea who he was. He denied being on the internet. I mentioned the site and the following day he emailed me that he'd been on there briefly 2 years ago and didn't know why they'd kept his ad on, but had deleted the ad. Of course, he'd put on a picture I'd taken of him, which I pointed out. He told mutual friends that I couldn't commit, so I ended my email with "I can't commit to someone who cannot be trusted, who is inconstant and unreliable." Then he sent me a bill for our dates, my birthday party, my birthday present, work done on my house, etc.!!! I ignored it. Since then, he's contacted me a couple of times, sent several nasty emails and letters calling me names, blaming me and telling me about how wonderful the women he's dating are (a mutual friend told me he's now on several sites but I'm not looking; I asked her for no more news). This seemed like I was dealing with a 5-year-old. He called me last week to "talk" and also asked me out (I said it wasn't a good idea). After that call, I emailed him that I want a relationship with someone who has integrity and acts appropriately, that I don't want a relationship with someone I cannot trust, whom I have to check on, worry about, etc. I accepted my role, but not all the blame he heaped on me. I also said that without assistance, there is no future here and I need to move on, good luck. I received no response but had my email turned off for several days. Today, I've gotten 2 anonymous hang-ups so far. There was a lot of good in that relationship, but the bad far outweighs it. I felt that he was empty; I have friends, hobbies, activities, I read. He has none of that. Also, his exwife divorced him because of some form of internet activities, I don't know what they were, but he said he'd learned his lesson, wouldn't do that again. Right! Anyhow, this site has given me a lot of information. I feel badly, but I didn't cause it. It sounds pretty hopeless if one gets involved with a PA. I hope to learn from this and avoid them in the future.... I'm working on myself, getting my life back together, maybe I'll date next month or whenever, it's only been a month. Sorry about the long post! From: june  Date Posted: 02/04/03  Entered From: 64.12.105.151 Thanks for the encouragement and support. I do feel like the victim of a hit-and-run, didn't know quite what I was dealing with, what a surprise. For a while, I really thought this guy was "the one." I certainly don't feel that way today! I do feel like I over-stayed, even though it was only 8 months and I'm trying not to beat myself up too much about it. There were several abusive emails that I discounted; given the same circumstances today, I'd leave instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt. Ah, hindsight.... Shortly before the break-up, I realized I was starting to use terms like "I'm not a mind reader," "sabbotage" "ambush" "dirty-pool" and "feeling the rug was pulled out from under me" as well as "alien attacks." I don't think of those terms normally when I think of "love." There was also a compulsive component to making love, which I noted several posters also felt. We once had dinner with a Psychiatrist friend of mine. She said he didn't feel honest (he appeared to be giving answers that she would like rather than expressing his genuine feelings) and noted how he tried to appear that he had no needs; he asked me to pick the restaurant, the wine and what meal he should order that would go with mine! She said those feel like love in the beginning of a relationship, but it's a set-up for blaming me and calling me controlling at a later date. She said I should pay attention to what a man does when he doesn't get what he wants. I will heed her advice in the future, as well as what I've learned here, and pay attention to ACTIONS, not words. I've ordered "Living With A P-A Man" and will look up "Emotionally Unavailable" as well, I seem to have found a wide variety of them in my past, so it's something I need to look at for my own growth. One thing I wanted to note: several people questioned whether this personality is abusive. I believe it is. I looked at several abuse sites and the blaming, lying, cheating, lashing out, withholding, and threatening-to-leave behavior all qualifies. In my city, we have a hotline and support groups. Even if one chooses to stay in one of these relationships, it would provide new coping skills. Al-anon or any 12-step program would also be helpful in getting centered. From: KIM  Date Posted: 02/04/03 Entered From: 168.166.190.219 JUNE: Smart lady with high self-esteem... You did right, from the beginning.. each new relationship is a gamble from the beginning... we date not to make each date a life long partner but to get to know that person and see if we do want to spend extra time with them... You followed your instincts, knew what you wanted and didn't want, didn't try to fix him or mold him into what you needed and wanted (simply because of time invested).. and walked when the appropriate time came to walk.. not accepting more than your fair share of the blame... A lot of us sure could use you as an example... I applaud you.. Subject: ABUSIVE? From: KIM  Date Posted: 02/04/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 June: I think some folks question whether it is abusive or not for different reasons.. one.. p.a. is very covert, insidious and the p.a. has the uncanny ability to turn the tides (so to speak) and have you take the blame.. that or deny intent or even the deed itself.. which is why so many are SO confused.. Unlike the verbal abuser and the physical abuser, the emotional abuser is a bit more cowardly and secretive..... the 2nd reason why you see so many not knowing is because maybe they grew up around abuse, or they have taken for so long that they no longer know what is and what isn't as if there are degrees of it... it is tricky.. which is one of the reasons I started the site.. there was very little out there about passive-aggressive behavior and even LESS about what it does to the victim..... Everyday I get emails from folks who say EXACTLY what I once felt... I thought I was crazy, I thought I was the wrong one........ the p.a. is good.. very good... From: june   Date Posted: 02/09/03  Entered From: 64.12.105.163 I find myself angry about the abusive nature of his behavior. I am planning on joining the local support group because I never want to get involved with another abusive person. I need to learn to recognize the signals earlier. In preparation for that, I reviewed some of his emails that were from left field, his lashing out at me for his own inadequacies, his jealous rages (which may have been projections on to me since he's the one who was soliciting on the internet!). I find that I'm angry at myself for overlooking this nonsense earlier in the relationship; I guess I discounted it as nonsense because it's so irrational, I felt sorry for him because he was so upset over nothing. 3 of my male friends warned me about him, that he had too much anger; I discounted their advice as being jealous. I've since apologized to them, admitted that they were right. I guess I have to remember that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be, this was a lesson, be grateful that I escaped so much sooner than so many others. (great saying: to get rid of the warts, you have to let go of the frog.) I do not want him back; I do wish that he hadn't turned out to be such a jerk, like maybe if he were just someone else, the relationship could've worked.... ;-) I like Shania Twain's new song "Nah" : That's it! (That's all!) We had fun! (We had a ball!)It was good while it lasted-- but now I'm past it (It was sure!) It was sweet! Sure you swept me off my feet I miss you now and then, but would I do it all again--Nah-- Subject: the truth has set me free From: Linda   Date Posted: 01/31/03  Entered From: 24.237.129.34 After 10 years of misery, depression, suicidal actions, hopelessness, confusion, and guilt -- I have found the answer and my life will never be the same. I now know what makes my husband tick. He is so PA. Now I know why we're in such a bad financial situation, why we have the same relationship issues over and over, why he can make me sob and not care enough to stop, why I'm not happy! I'm a Christian and do not wish to divorce, but changes must be made. It is a new day and I must take care of me and my 2 year old son. Ten years of emotional abuse is enough. No more. If anyone can offer prayer support, I need wisdom to know how to proceed. I am elated with the empowerment of this new revelation about why my life is the way it is, but I don't want to make rash decisions. I want my decisions to be well-thought-out, fair, and right. I want to be balanced and not swing in the other direction or overcompensate. Thanks to the information on your site, I have hope again. After TEN YEARS I have hope again. Thank you!!! From: maria  To: All  Date Posted: 02/03/03  Entered From: 40.0.96.2 Dear Linda, I have read your article a few times and I guess I can relate to you. I have taken on a new way of seeing things in my life. when ever my husband starts saying something about me I just turn to him and tell him that I will listen to anyone that does not talk to me with respect and I leave the room. When he is in a bad mood I just do my thing, go with the kids out for a walk or just play with them. You must learn to have another life one which does not involve him especially when he is having a bad day. He must feel that your world does not revolve around him and believe me it has worked for me. When he feels that I am neutral to mood swings and that he can not upset me he sort of calms down. I can not say this will work for everyone but it my personal experience. Do not let him feel that your world revolves around him, make a separate life for you and your child. Good luck Subject: Re:make a separate life for you and your child From: Linda M.  Date Posted: 02/04/03   Entered From: 24.237.129.15 Thank you so much for the wonderful advice and encouragement. I especially appreciate the part that says, "Do not let him feel that your world revolves around him." I never thought about that before. From: Scarlett  Date Posted: 02/05/03  Entered From: 38.138.58.41 Dear Marie and Linda M. I definitely agree that the thing you must do is live your life, take the children places alone if he won't go, or claims he can't for some reason. I have been doing that, but where it usually leads is to separate lives. Then of course, I started asking myself, "Why am I living like a single mom, when I have a husband who should be here with us?" Then I thought, "No, this is actually worse, because as a single mom, maybe Saturday night I would be going out to dinner with a partner I would be having fun with!" You start to feel trapped. You are married without a husband. Not fun. But it is probably a much better path then just staying home and waiting and hoping he will do things with you and the children. After you start doing things and stop putting your life on hold, you get stronger and realize, "Hey, why should I stay married? This is not healthy, and I do not believe God really wants my children to think this is how a husband should treat them. (When they grow up and marry.) I might be setting them up for the same sad relationship." At that point it's decision time. All this could take a year or more, and maybe during that time your H will look over his shoulder at the fun you're all having and decide he'll join life, but don't count on it. Good Luck!! From: maria    Date Posted: 02/05/03  Entered From: 40.0.96.2 dear Linda, It is really so easy to say it but I have let my world revolve around my husband for so long that sometimes when he doesn't pay attention to me, I feel that my world is falling apart. My husband pays a yo-yo game, when he is coming too close, he pulls away and leaves me confused, it is tearing me apart inside and don't know how long I can take it, he is currently involved in starting up his business and he has informed me that he is too busy to talk about what is missing in our relationship and when he has finished with his business side of things he will decide if he wants to remain with me or not, basically I told him that he should leave, no matter what you do is never ever enough, so in the end I just stop trying. Good luck with you I hope you have better luck than I have been having. Maria From: Ike  Date Posted: 02/09/03  Entered From: 152.163.204.192 I came to accept a seperate life, perhaps a role as a "mother" to our children, rejected, ignored and largely avoided by PA. The real kicker was 1)the deep depression I ultimately sunk to and 2)being blamed and having it turned around that he was perfect, and that I had better own his behaviors, and that I never did anything for anyone, he took credit for the pluses, positives and heaped me with the negatives. It is traumatic to be blamed and scathed for the abuse you tolerated. Worse to witness one of your children modeling PA behavior. In my relationship, my personal fulfillment was intercepted, sabbotaged or an excuse for hostile behavior. Many pros and cons to weigh. Today I regret I did not have a different perception of nice or good --equal for me as well as others. Subject: my 22 year old son From: Linda   Date Posted: 01/27/03   From: 68.57.71.89 I know that my son has p.a. He was diagnosed with it in elementary school by a psychologists that he had therapy with for 2 years and again went to the same therapists when he was 12. It is affecting his job because he is constantly late. He still lives at home and has responsibilities and obligations such as paying us a small rent and paying for his car, insurance, phone bill, buying his own clothes. He doesn't get paid a lot but it is a good initial job for him to learn about being responsible and reliable. But at the rate he is going I'm afraid he is going to lose his job. Besides therapy, is there anything we can do to encourage him to get to work on time!!?? From: Lynda  Date Posted: 01/30/03  Entered From: 192.136.16.3 He is in no danger of losing his place to live now. Give him a month to find his own place and my guess is that he will be on time so he can keep a roof over his head. Right now he has no consequences of being late. From: KIM    Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 I think that your son is young enough to be able to get thru to him.. but I would still suggest therapy... You can tell him that if he doesn't get to work on time he will get fired... what he needs to understand is that being on time is not something directed at him to control him.. there are specific reasons for being asked to do so, and they extend to all.. not just your son.. For some reasons, p.a.s seem to feel that the rules do not apply to them, they shouldn't and that the folks who create the rules are enforcing them to control them... You son needs to realize that this is just how the world operates and that most folks aren't probably even thinking about your son in particular... I think if I were you I would read as much as I can about the behavior (many articles on the site) let your son know this.. that he can learn how to live in the world or he can keep trying to buck the system only to find out in the end he will be the only one hurting.. the world will go on, and so will the people he is trying to get back at... I will leave the url to the sitemap below and you can take a look around the site... Link URL: http://www.pa2.homestead.com/Sitemap.html Subject: My husband From: bonnie  Date Posted: 01/30/03  Entered From: 68.48.78.52 My husband is the type of person who will watch what I do or say and repeat the same. He refuses to get any sort of help both individual or martial. He will not help me in the daily duties of the house or the children. I am in couseling by my self and she tells me to ignore him. This is easier than said. Do you have any suggestions. Subject: Access to this Message Board From: Rod   Date Posted: 01/27/03   194.117.133.118 I have been feeling very uncomfortable these past few days about why I am so confused about the access to this message board. All sorts of issues around this are coming up about me and being 'too much' and 'too deep' etc which have had a lot over the years. I am begining to feel I am not wanted and that maybe this is site is not suitable or is not aimed at people who are PA's and want to try and work through their stuff. I went to PA only and my posting there from the 9th is still the last one and no one has replied. Which is why I came here to this message board as the link said for PA discussions. One of my patterns seems to be when everything is going along just nicely something happens which gives me a knock back and in this case twice in a week. Am I being paranoid? is this my PA showing itself? Just when I feel I am getting somewhere am I creating a reason to leave as feel am being rejected as not good enough? I usually walk when I get warning signs but I want so much to see this through. I wrote to Kim re the difficulty getting access on 23rd and 24th of this month, and she kindly replied about being shutdown because of exceeding the bandwidth so to keep open parts of the site some had to go. I could not gain access at all until I recived notifcation of a posting, which showed me that others could gain access and then I went on to find there were several posting over the very same two days that I could not get on. So my mistrust comes up and has brought up lots of other issues for me and no doubt due to being a PA. Why could I not get access and yet others could? Now I read that this board is reserved for first time people only. So now my confusement has turned to anger as I have made a lot of postings and responses which have been very helpful to me on my journey. But now am feeling as though this was a wrong use and I am out of order in some way. I feel like a child who has been told off very nicely but still told off and yet does not understand why! Another pattern from my childhood, I always felt I was supposed to pre-empt everything and get it right. To please and not to annoy. My reason for this confusement seems to be that I can not find clear guidelines on how to use this board as a first timer coming to this site. I would have found it helpful to read some sort of explanation and have guidlines as to how to get the best from the site. Would it not be helpful to know for example who can respond to these new people comong in? Is there a team or certain people who have this authority to do that. I was replying as wanted to get involved as the note on the link says PA discussions so to me that is what I wanted to do. I think this message board is brilliant and want very much to congratulate those responsible for creating it. It is very clear and user friendly and allows people to look back and reply to recent discussions all on one page. Excellent way to feel welcome and part of a group of people who are trying to deal with PA, regardless of if they are PA or not. Maybe its my being from England but I find the "Guest Book" very confusing as this implies to me that people going there are guests to the site and not regular members returning for disscussions. I find the guest book way of posting and replying causes me confusement as I dont think the lay out is as user friendly as is this message board and certainly I would think could put people off from posting or checking back. As when looked through the same people from here were not there! Rod From: Linda S.  Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 169.71.80.21 Rod, I usually post on the Guest book side. I read your message and I would just like you to know that there are many snafus in life and on this site. Little things happen daily. It sucks, I know but try to go with it. If you're still alive and have your hands and your mind, etc., you'll be OK! It sounded to me like you got confused and anxious because you want to get through this adventure- you want to get to the end result- and that's OK. But realize the feelings are temporary and there's an explanation for everything. Just ask direct questions and someone here will answer. Take the time to adventure and click on something randomly. You don't need to know everything and get everything right NOW - immediately. This site has been such a great and unique help to me in my situation. Unfortunately, there are probably not alot of PAs on this site trying to heal so you're at a loss for peers. There's mostly those affected by them (in case you didn't realize). That's not the fault of the site itself, as I'm sure you 've noticed. When you're frustrated, keep in mind what that dude in the movie Animal House says when the kids are looting the supermarket "Remain calm, all is well!" Good Luck with your adventure! From: Laura   Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Rod, I was also not able to access the site last week, nor were most of the "regulars". Yes, it really was a bandwidth problem, if you took it personally, you misperceived the situation. Periodically, Kim posts a notification about how to use this message board. She has been doing this since long before you arrived. Once again, it has nothing to do with you personally. Anybody here is free to respond to newcomers, she just prefers that only newcomers post the original messages, at least that has been my understanding. That is her way of keeping traffic down because this sort of message board is more difficult to maintain. If you look through the archives, you will see other posts from Kim that say the same thing. I have enjoyed reading your posts, they have provided me with insight into the PA way of thinking. I am sorry that you have not received any responses from the PA only board, from what I have learned, few PA's actually recognize, much less want to work on their issues. I am glad that you have found sharing what you have learned helpful. Whether you choose to stay or leave, I wish you the best of luck on your journey. You have only just begun, and you have a long, hard road ahead of you. From: Lee  Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 139.177.224.100 Rod, Sweetheart, Your posts have been interesting to read and we are all interested in what you have to say. The thing is Kim has told us repeatedly not to post too much on this board because it can't handle too much and it is more difficult for her to Archive it. I know it seems strange and almost like it was happening to you because the shut down happened so soon after you posted, but I came up against the same bandwith problem. Please, do not feel offended by Kim. She is just stating the facts. No one can really be too personal here anyways because we really don't know anyone personally. You are welcome to post at the guestbook board where most people are posting. The format is not exactly the same, but people will respond to your post just the same. Subject: TO LEE From: KIM    LEE: Rod was not confused (read my last post to him).. Rod was being passive-aggressive... He indirectly (under the guise of p.a. confusion) expressed his displeasure at being asked to do something he didn't want to do (p.a.'s dislike of perceived authority) expressed his unhappiness with the way the other board works and wanted to be left alone.. further pointing out that the direction was confusing ...further deflecting and blaming and did not like it that I did not fall in line, feel guilty or accept the blame that he wanted to shift... Like I said, I have been doing this long enough now that I have no problem seeing the hidden meaning.. that is a very nice p.a. way for him to get his point accross... If all he wanted was clarification of what occurred, he could have either emailed me privately or simply asked... no he wanted to "add" his commentary on what he doesn't like and wanted to be left alone to do what he wanted....plain and simple he doesn't "like" the other board (he said that) and he wanted to continue on this board (which he does like) and he didn't want anyone to "tell him what he could and couldn't do" very typical p.a. Passive aggressive double talk is good but you can always pick out the real agenda and Rod did get to it.. his dislike of the other board... Subject: Re:Access to this Message Board From: KIM    Date Posted: 01/28/03    Entered From: 168.166.190.219 ROD.... I do not have time to read your entire email this morning.. however, if you would scroll down you will see THAT I HAVE POSTED this message to ALL MANY MANY TIMES.... repeatedly.. I have already explained to you why the messageboard was shut down and EVERYONE SAW THE SAME if they came in through the site... The messageboard (because it is not part of my site) is out there on the search engines by itself and can be accessed that way WITHOUT going thru the site.. which then you would not SEE THE MESSAGE... that is why others were able to post during that period.... I believe that I asked ALL to use the other section for ongoing discussions (which I have done many times before) and this invitation is extended to you as well... I have to archive the messageboard more often than the guestbook... plain and simple....... it is not anything aimed at you (I thought you were further along in your p.a.ism than that) I appreicate your posts and no, I haven't noticed that they were TOO DEEP.. I believe everyone reading them appreicated what you had to say.. I am just asking you to say it on a different board...... that is all... I don't think the directions are all that complicated either, and if you read the intro to the messageboard on the site you will see them THERE.....(please take the time to read them) If you need more reassurance than that, I am sorry but you will have to seek it elsewhere... I have all I can handle in one day with being a manager of a department, running a house, raising a child and taking care of the many different aspects of this site... P.S..... I am NOT p.a. and if I had a problem with you I would express it.. I would not beat around the bush and put out vague signs to all hoping you would pick up on it...... You jumped to conclusions before you bothered to get an explanation... From: KIM   Date Posted: 01/28/03    Entered From: 168.166.190.219 P.s. Feel free to answer first time posters.. however, if the discussion goes further it needs to be taken to the GUESTBOOK...... Maybe it is just me this morning but it is difficult to read all of the "hidden meanings" in everything I have created here to help other people.... I have dealt with this before from other p.a.s who "read" something into everything (that is not my style to take the time to create something under the guise of helping only to find ways to hurt in the process.. got to much to do.. wouldn't even enter my mind...........) The Guestbook is the only other way in which homestead allows me to have posting available to folks.. it is used in all the private areas.... I am sorry you do not like it, that it is confusing and you do not like how you feel when you enter there (you do not like the "title" guestbook...)....... Rod, I think you might want to spend some more time on some of your issues...... One of the main things that I noticed about p.a.s is that they think everything is about them, and if it isn't they find a way to make it about them..... This is what is available to you....period.. if it is not to your liking, then you always have the choice not to come here.... I am not saying that to be rude, but just to plain and simply state the alternative.. the only one...(and that is how it is in life sometimes) When this board gets going (and believe me it does) I have to archive it much more often than the guestbook.. that is it, period... sorry it is not to your liking... even if others have had a "problem" with the way things are here, they have (I beleive) realized that someone (me) created a place to heal and although not everything is to their exact tastes and liking they are aware that the whole world does not operate in such a manner to please them all of the time and they make the neccessary mental adjustments and adapt.... It is called maturity.... Subject: Kim.. From: BonnieJ  Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 172.193.51.153 Obviously I am butting in here but if you were to re-read these couple posts on a day where you are less stressed it is your replies that are filled with anger. Frankly you were pretty rude to him. I appreciate all the help I have received on your website. I would assume after this post that I will not be welcome here either. Subject: to Bonnie From: KIM  Date Posted: 01/29/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 NO.. not stressed... just low tolerance for p.a. games.. reread his post.. what you will find is not a poor pitiful confused p.a. (don't know if you are use to dealing with them but that is part of the manipulation and their way to make us look like the bad guy which he succeeded to some degree at least in your case I see)... But Rod made his point quite well in his covert p.a. pitiful fashion.. IT REEKED.. it reeked of victimhood, being misunderstood, being attacked, accused, and much more.. bottom line is that he wasn't (and he is the ONLY ONE TO DATE TO READ SO MUCH INTO SO LITTLE) the bottom line is that he saw me asking ALL to post elsewhere as a authoratative dictate which p.a.s distain, he expressed his dislike of the other board.. and he did it all in the typical pitiful victimized p.a. style.... I was not rude, I was to the point, but no, I am sorry I do not have time to coddle the p.a. and play into their little games (I stopped that a LONG time ago)... as I said, (if you reread his post) his bottom line was he didn't like being moved to another board, liked this one so he thought he would look "picked on" and he would get sympathy.. well he got it.. but to all of you that are with p.a.s and have been on the site awhile I am surprized you fell for it... it reeked.... Subject: Re:to Bonnie From: BonnieJ  Posted: 01/29/03  Entered From: 172.166.177.242 Kim you are probably right. I am not with a pa and have not been at the site for a while. One night the word passive aggressive came in my mind and I looked it up. (Read your site thoroughly.) I thought the description I would find would be of a friend of mine. With people's negative opinion's of pa's here I was not happy to discover that the description seemed to fit me. I appreciate you taking the time to put this site together. It has helped me a lot. Have a great day! Subject: Re:Kim.. From: Ug-A-Wug-A-Wig-Wam (Curious)  Date Posted: 01/29/03  Entered From: 64.12.96.39 How! Wash off the war paint ladies! Sheesh! He's just making some observations and expressing his feelings. Lighten up and smoke-um peace pipe. Whew! Me ride-um horse into sunset... Subject: Curious' post From: Linda S.  Date Posted: 01/29/03  Entered From: 169.71.80.21 Dude, you're clueless. PLEEZ ride off into the sunset until you get a clue! Maybe you could read some of this site and educate yourself along the way... You apparently don't even know half the story! Kim, By the way, you ROCK!! And you are 100% correct in your determination of Rod's reactions. I hope he adds this knowledge to his healing process! Subject: TO CURIOUS From: KIM  Date Posted: 01/29/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 you obviously don't know p.a.s very well do you.. do you think that an entire site was created, getting over 2,000 hits per day, numerous emails from people expressing their thanks and saying the site was saving their lives, that they thought they were going crazy if p.a.s were these simple kind a folks "just expressing their opinion" get real..... their isn't too much simple are innocent in what the p.a. does... Subject: Re:TO CURIOUS From: Eloise  Date Posted: 02/01/03  Entered From: 64.126.93.60 One more thing-you should keep that racist crap to yourself. Subject: Re:Kim.. FROM Laura  Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Bonnie, I think you need to reread Rod's post. > It is classic PA behavior and Kim called him on it. Yes, she was blunt and and to the point, but if he is truly trying to work on the behavior, then he should consider it as constructive feedback. Setting firm and clear limits with a PA is necessary, or so I have found, otherwise it doesn't get through. The anger and resentment here are his, for not being allowed to play by his own set of rules, but he is projecting it onto somebody else. He feels entitled to live life on his terms. The apology is an empty one, used only to try to gain sympathy so that he can go into victim mode, feed into his feelings that he has been unfairly persecuted, that we don't make him feel "safe" (i.e. we have been mean to him). I suspect though there is alot of truth to his feelings of insecurity, PA's are easily threatened. Unfortunately, growing and changing isn't about feeling safe, it involves moving out of your comfort zone, facing demons that can be painful as hell, as I think Rod has already discovered. PA's don't want to hear that they may bear some responsibility for the situations they find themselves in. I am really not interested in taking sides here, I don't see either Kim or Rod as being "right", they are both just who they are, and I respect that. Personally, I hope that Rod sticks around. I think the work he has done so far is commendable, and I enjoy reading his posts. But he has a long way to go, which is to be expected. And I think you are underestimating Kim if you think a mere difference of opinion will make you unwelcome. Finally, Kim posts her request message on a regular basis. The vast majority of the time, readers read the message and comply with her request, issue resolved, no big deal. I find it very interesting that this has turned into such a brouhaha, with Rod threatening to take his ball and go play somewhere else. A minor issue has turned into a major one, to be left unresolved, with people getting sucked in along the way. Rod, if you are reading this, you may want to read up on borderline personality disorder and see if it sounds like you. Just a thought. Subject: Re:Kim.. From: kIM  Date Posted: 01/29/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 Laura: thank you.... as usual (and as usual it is the non-p.a. who is the "bad guy") I see that the same happens here as it does in all cases with the p.a. The p.a. gets their point across in their "p.a. fashion" and his point was very obvious.. not necessarily that he was confused (as I said he could have emailed me like he did in the first place) but to express his displeasure in having to go to a board he didn't like.. then when I replied answering his questions, telling him that his posts were welcomed, and because I didn't coddle him, baby him I am rude.. no, I am not rude, I don't play p.a. games.. and it was obvious to see that this was one... sorry to those of you who couldn't see it... his initial post REEKED that he did not like what was happening and wanted HIS WAY... Subject: Re:Access to this Message Board From: Rod  Date Posted: 01/28/03    Entered From: 62.30.112.3 Thank you for your replies to what I think was my request to seek clarification. I am amazed at the level of anger it seems to have caused. I am trying to look at my issues and was asking in the posting if it was about them. I am not sure if I am much the wiser though and maybe it is best left there as I am now begining to feel that there is a level of resentment at me for being a PA and which is only part of who I am. I apologise if I have caused offence or missused the system this was not my intention. I do though not like it when I feel I am being patronised so as you say I have a choice and I exercise that. So my silence is not any revengeful thing but the realisation I need to go away and further my work on my issues in a way which is safe for me to do. All the best with your site Rod From: Lynnw  Date Posted: 01/29/03  Entered From: 24.229.41.84 Rod; I think many of us have learned a lot through your posts, and I have seen only acceptance of your point of view. The 'rules' that you take so personally apply to everyone who uses the site. Kim set the site up the way it is to make it more managable for her (she started and maintains this site by herself, and deserves a heap of praise). Kim has explained many times, to many people why they should move to one of the other discussion boards available at her site (it's difficult to archive this threaded type of message board, so she tried to keep the number of postings down). I'm sorry that the PA Only site has so little activity; my husband used to post there, but lost interest. If more PAs would use it, I think it could be a valuable resource. I encourage you to post in the Guest Book. You are insightful and willing to discuss your problems. You have been a help to those of us dealing with PA people in our life, as I hope we can help you see things from the other side. From: KIM   Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 aaah, such a typical p.a. reply and attempt to turn your own anger back on me... You expressed in writing YOUR anger.. I am not angry.. However, It never ceases to amaze me how some folks can take something that has nothing to do with them, make it all about them, find hidden meanings, direct that anger inappropriately, and when something is "said" try to turn it around and make that person feel guilty or make them the responsible party. I been doing this long enough not to allow you to turn it on me and make it my fault or try to make me feel guilty.... won't work here, my friend (If I haven't learned anything about p.a. in all this time, I certainly learned that little trick)...... I know who I am and what I am doing.... I replied (and didn't have to) to try to clear up your misconceptions, but I refuse to play into your paranoia and defend myself or what I am doing here...you came to the wrong person if you were looking for a pity party.... From: KIM  Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 you used your p.a. to indirectly point out your displeasure with how the site works, the guestbook, and how you "want" it to be... I did not miss that in your "innocently" composed quest for clarification nor in your reply of victimhood......if that was all you wanted then you could have either emailed me privately, or simply "asked" what was going on WITHOUT all of the additional commentary... no sorry Rod..... not going to swallow the "I was just asking and you are sooo mean" trick... believe me when I say that I have heard that before here AFTER people get in their little digs, expressing their opinions under the "guise" of an "innocent" quest for clarfication... reread your post.. you made your point very well.... you wanted to be left alone to do what you wanted on this board and you do not like it that someone "imposed" a rule on you.. that IS p.a. my friend... part one and part two... From: Curious  Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 205.188.208.139 This is truly disheartening. From: Susan  Posted: 01/27/03  Entered From: 24.196.117.252 Rod: After the initial postings at this part of the website, people are asked to go to the message boards. There is one for general access that you can get to on the same page that you get to this one from. After the page has loaded, scroll down a little farther and you will see the book. Click on that. Then you can post to your heart's content and enter into dialog with people who are working on their issues. Primarily, this site is geared towards those who live with or are involved with a PA. I know the PA message board is very inactive which is because PA's rarely are willing to work on themselves. The rest of us post pretty much on the message boards so you might want to consider doing that, too, since that is what Kim, who maintains the site, has requested. As far as not getting on the site, it was down for those two days. No one I know from this site was able to get on it because of the bandwidth problem. I don't know what that means except that I was in withdrawal for a few days there and I'm glad the site is back. Personally, I made a donation to help keep it running. Hope this helps you with your trust issues. From: Brenda  Date Posted: 01/30/03   Entered From: 192.136.16.3 Kim, don't you realize you got hooked by Rod's post??? You played into the game! The number of replies you have made shows it. If you weren't hooked, you would have replied the facts without emotion and let it go. Please look at yourself. Your reply also played into Rob's fear: fear of negative emotions. The one PA we had who was willing to let us get inside his head to help us understand PAs and it seems that he is not coming back. From: Laura  Date Posted: 01/30/03  Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Brenda, Do you think all of the replies were directed at Rod, or perhaps was it that she was defending herself at the attacks that were being made against her by the other members of the board? I think it is pretty human to want to explain yourself when you are being accused of being rude, unsympathetic, or out of line. Just my perspective. From: KIm  Date Posted: 01/30/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 LAURA: I guess in a way I was more disappointed at the number of people that actually fell for this poor confused person p.a. act... he admitted right in the first post that he emailed me and I replied nicely.. so obviously he had no problem seeking clarification from the person who created the site.. but then takes his long sad story to the open board filled with a lot of "I" statements and how victimized he is feeling..as I said he wanted a show, and I am sorry that I fell into by not emailing him privately...... This is not the first time this has happened here on the site with both p.a.s and non p.a.s And I always find it a little amusing that whatever is happening here, they think they can plead their case before some jury here.. there is no jury... and even if everyone else agreed with him the bottom line is that I do what I have to do to keep it running and in such a way that I can handle it... From: Brenda  Date Posted: 01/30/03 Entered From: 192.136.16.3 Laura, she denied being angry but she sure sounded like she was to me. To me she sounded unnecessarily harsh. Also, when she first replied, she didn't even reply to Rob directly. From: KIM  Date Posted: 01/30/03  :Entered From: 168.166.190.219 BRENDA: I realized that I did play into it(to a degree) by replying on the board... and I guess folks can speculate all they want or need to.. I do not need to try to prove to anyone what my intentions were, whether or not I was angry or anything else... (I was in a hurry both times and hit submit before I finished my thought)I admitted that I played into it in my last post... Rod's post was directed AT me in a very p.a. round about way.. because I am the one who posted the message to post elsewhere ..... I did not fail to pick up on that, and I answered him (which I had a right to and no, I am sorry I did not coddle him and have/had no intention to..that is what the p.a. wants and I admit that I have no more tolerance for game playing, indirectness, and covert messages).. if no one has anything better to do but analyze this to death then I suggest they go out into their community and look for charity work... I at least am contributing to the knowledge of over 2,000 folks per day with what is offered here on the site.. which is at least constructive... From: KIM  Date Posted: 01/30/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 I routinely think of one more thing (sorry, you do not have me in a tizzy)... I respect anyone's right to come on this board as long as they abide by the rules.. HOWEVER, the entire purpose of the site I created 3 years ago IS BECAUSE of what JUST happened here with ROD... I am sorry that YOU will not benefit anymore from Rod's experiences, but I do not intend to tolerate abuse and attempted manipulation (covert or overt) in order for YOU to benefit from it...... Sorry you cannot see past yourself....and I am sorry that what is here is not enough and that you would expect me to tolerate this behavior for your learning experience.... Subject: TO BRENDA ... WOW!!! From: KIM  Date Posted: 01/30/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 You know maybe you do have me in a tizzy... I can't get over your statement that you expect me to tolerate p.a. abuse and manipulation just so YOU can benefit from it.... I don't think that in the history of this site have I ever seen such a selfish statement (including any from p.a.s) especially in light of the fact that this is the reason that the site was created and why a good deal of us are here.. because at one time we tolerated abusive behavior from a passive-aggressive person to the point that our self-esteem was practically nil..... I am astounded that you would even suggest such a thing... Rod's cry for attention, support and attempt to get his own way was obvious to some and even if it were not it is obvious in your post that all you are worried about is YOU.... Did it occur to you to think how I might feel to come to this board ( a site that I pay for and spend a lot of time maintaining) to find that someone has written this tear jerking long ass letter about how confused, misunderstood and persecuted he was WHICH WAS aimed DIRECTLY at me and what I asked of him...... All I can say to you is WOW..... I guess there are a lot more than p.a.s that think the world should revolve around them.... Even if I thought what you thought, don't think I would have said it.... From: Eve  Date Posted: 01/31/03  Entered From: 38.138.142.1 KIM-----YOU GO GIRL!! Maybe this sounds harsh, but I've been living with a PA for over 20 years, and I've about had it with their reasons of disfunctional and abusive childhoods. I am truly sorry for anyone who had a sad, tough, abusive time growing up, but this is not a dress rehearsal (as Cher says) THIS IS IT!! Get a grip and do what you have to to enjoy these precious moments we have on this earth and stop whining and blaming everyone and everything for real or perceived persecutions!!!!! FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE---LIVE!! Kim, you are the greatest! God Bless You! From KIM Eve: thank you for your support.. what I find amazing is that the VERY thing that each of these women put up with from the p.a. man (manipulation of what the p.a. has done to the point to where THEY looked like the bad guy) they did to me... they were VERY quick to take up for the p.a., smoothing his little ruffled feathers and make me the bad guy.....how often has that happened to them??? yet, they were VERY quick to do it to me.... I only hope that what is provided on the site will eventually teach them.. not only in their own individual cases but in any situation with the p.a. until they can SEE IT across the board, they will keep falling for it over and over and over again......thank you for your support... you know I am for anyone who is trying to improve their life, but have absolutely no tolerance for the manipulative, covert games used to gain whatever it is that one is trying to gain by resorting to this behavior.. what is sad is that folks don't think that "some" can see RIGHT THRU IT... From: OBSERVER wouldn't that be a lot like asking the director of the abuse shelter to stand out in front and get beat up by one of the abusee's husbands (the abuser) so she can understand his technique and be able to dodge his blows better in the future.. I agree pretty selfish request..... Subject: TO LYNDA/Brenda From: KIM  Date Posted: 01/30/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 changing your posting name doesn't work... By the way, my answer was addressed directly to ROD.. so know of what you speak BEFORE you speak... as if that is some huge insight or means anything... Also, feel free to contact Rod on a regular basis by email so that YOU can continue learning how to deal with your husband at anyone else's expense...... But you know, in Rod's post he didn't mention ONE thing about helping others.. In fact what he DID mention is that there were MANY POSTS THAT WERE HELPING HIM on his journey...sounds like the two of you may be kindred spirits... Subject: Hi Rod From: BonnieJ  Date Posted: 01/27/03  Entered From: 172.172.38.98 I think this board is supposed to be used for 1st timers. But obviously when someone posts feeling confused they are looking for support so I do not think you are doing anything wrong by posting. You have been a lot of help to people on this board and to me personally. (Also is not a lot of action on the guest book.) I have had a weird relationship with someone for the last couple years. I do not understand how he can go with a girl who is just a friend to a romantic place. (Drink wine & listen to music.) In my mind you do certain things with someone you are intimate with. Like a roadtrip is supposed to be a special thing. When you do it all the time it takes away its meaning and specialness. Anyway to get to the point I did a search on emptiness so I could understand. (Know he often feels like this.) This search brought up a lot of PA links and it seems to fit me to a T. I always thought I was a caring person and after reading all the posts here I see how people feel about pa's. Also looking back at how many things that went wrong that were my fault. Anyway I have babbled long enough. Thank you for listening. TO: ALL From: KIM  Date Posted: 01/29/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 ROD wanted a show and he got it.. if Rod was confused he could have emailed me privately like he did the first time.. I answered his questions, gave him explanations, etc.. I am sorry for those of you who fell for this very typical p.a. stunt and even more sorry for those of you who have been around long enough and should have been able to see it (also for those of you that see me as the bad guy, is this not what the p.a. does on a regular basis to you all)... I was blunt and to the point with Rod, I was not angry and I think that shows in my support of him and asking him to stay BUT.. I do not fall for the p.a. games anymore and have a low tolerance for them and because of that Rod gave the very typical p.a. comeback.. "he was victimized" ..by me...and was "just asking"... ... I do hope for those of you that were not able to pick up on this, that you read or reread "Living with the P.A. Man" I believe you may have missed some parts or are still easily manipulated by the p.a... .... As far as I am concerned the show is over now... My regret was giving him the show.. I should have emailed him privately with my reply.. which would have not been any different..... Subject: POSTING From: KIM (SITE OWNER)   Date Posted: 01/26/03  Entered From: 65.239.145.102 This messageboard is reserved for folks first entering the site seeking initial information.. once you have taken that step please either email me for a password to one of the private sections or go to the open board that is below the link for this messeageboard... I will leave the link below.. Your cooperation is appreciated... Link URL: http://www.pa2.homestead.com/messageboard.html Subject: Re:POSTING From: Dolores  Date Posted: 01/27/03  Message: I think that I am in a relationship with a PA Man. I just know that I'm not sure what's going on here. He's a wonderful person, intelligent, sense of humor, social has hobbies (more so in the past) He's very controlling regarding physical contact. This is a person I've known for years and now I'm not so sure now how well I know him. He's very fastidious about his appearance etc. Something isn't ringing true here and a friend of mine suggested PA might be the problem He's been divorced once and widower once, second family very messed up. I have to think carefully about how I'm going to say something to him because he overreacts. or just dosen't understand. He has a terrible time following through with important personal business. from: KIM  Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 Sounds like he might have some p.a. traits.. but given the small amount of information it is difficult to say more... Take a look around the site (there are many articles on p.a.) once you have done that you should be able to tell better if he is or not.. and then you would need to make some decisions.. depending on "how" p.a. he is.. some moreso than others.. will determine if you want to remain in the relationship....You may want to bring it to his attention (once you have determined if he is) some folks know something is wrong but do not know what it is so he may be appreciative and then again he may not.. It is something you will have to play by ear.. From: April  Date Posted: 01/25/03  Entered From: 24.166.156.208 Rod, I've been reading your posts and I want to say that I think it's wonderful that you are taking a long, honest look at yourself. Thank you for sharing all that you have with us. It's helped me at least to understand why it seemed that I wasn't completely respected or cherished in my relationship with my BF. He is twice divorced, 49 years old, 5 kids (3 from the first marriage and 2 from the second). He's been divorced for 7 years and ours was the 5th serious relationship since his second divorce. I'm hoping you can give me insight on something. We dated for 8 1/2 months and it was a very serious, very intense relationship (we did everything but live togehter and be married). He is a classic PA, and on top of that extremely jealous. He would make mountains out of molehills, when he imagined I was looking at another man, or I passed too close by to men in a crowd (example, a crowded state fair). I gave my whole heart to him and wanted him so badly. Yet he pushed me away time and time again with his imagined slights. I used to be a confident, professional woman, and I found myself doubting myself, and on an emotional rollercoaster of epic proportions. I tried to be tender and patient with him, but then I'd get angry with him when he would insist that I had intentions other than to be with him (one time we were at a motel pool and I was swimming laps. At the other end of the pool there were about 4 guys on the deck and he couldn't handle me swimming to that end so he stormed out and went back to the room). My mother had refused to meet him, and I was willing to marry him in spite of that because my mother can be a very rigid and unreasonable person. That last weekend of the relationship I had gone to see my mother, and he beat me up emotionally for the entire following week (though it wasn't till later that I figured out why he did that, because he never came out and told me). I was deprived of sleep, he insisted on talking to me at length at work, and berated me. Finally the last night we got into a small physical fight and I was afraid for my life, so I called the police. I told him I didn't want him anymore. They just made sure he got out of the house, but didn't book him or anything (I didn't want them to, I just wanted him gone). Two weeks later I sent him a long letter and card asking his forgiveness for the things I did wrong in the relationship (my angry outbursts, mostly), and he never responded. I sent him another letter a week ago telling him how hurt I'd felt in the relationship (I tried to tell him when it was happening and he always turned it around on me--he made it sound like it was ALL my fault). I also told him I was hurt that he hadn't apologized for being physically aggressive with me that night. I told him I still love him. I didn't expect a response and havne't gotten one yet. My issue is how he can do what he's doing now--seeing another woman not two blocks down my own street (he lives 15 minutes away from me by freeway)! He tends to favor younger blondes like me. He's been seeing this woman since November, barely one month after we broke up (it's been 3 months now since we broke up). What hurts most is that he continues to go to counseling at MY church evidently to help with this NEW relationship. We went to counseling about 8-9 times while dating, and I hear he's going practically every week. Why doesn't he at least apologize to me? He has evidently jumped into this new relationship and it tells me it's probably the same thing over and over again for him and he hasn't learned his lessons because he can't be alone to work on this stuff. Why doesn't he go back to one of these women he's dated or been married to in the past and FIX things instead of just moving on?? He's leaving a trail of tremendous pain behind him and I'm not convinced he's learning much along the way. I know it's his choice to date who he wishes, but I just can't imagine that he would go through the rest of life this way, going from one "fix" (woman) to another. Maybe he is emotionally bankrupt and a fix (instead of a marital relationship) is truly what satisfies him at this stage in his life? Thanks for any insight you have on this. We really appreciate your honesty and the time you have spent helping us understand. Subject: Re:Rod or anyone do you have insight on this? From: Ann  Date Posted: 01/26/03  Entered From: 62.252.128.5 April, please stop giving yourself a hard time. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but IMO this man does NOT love you. I used to go out with a man who continually told me he loved me and that our relationship was the best thing that had ever happened and that I was sooo special, etc. At the same time, however, he treated me in EXACTLY the same way as this man is treating you. Please remember that love is shown by ACTIONS NOT WORDS. These bullying manipulative types RELY on the fact that you won't 'throw in the towel' on the relationship. Once it all gets TOO much, however, and you DO eventually have to 'throw in the towel', he'll just go and get himself another 'rescuer' type! YOU CANNOT FIX THIS PERSON! Please don't waste anymore time or effort in trying to 'understand' him. If he decides he wants to stop hurting people he will have to make these changes himself. Many congratulations on getting out. You sound like a really caring and thoughtful person. Go out and enjoy yourself. I wish you much happiness in the future. Ann From: Rod   Posted: 01/25/03  From: 62.30.112.3 April may I start off by saying how sad I am for you and your ex. All this pain is so wasteful of our lives, it is destructive and shameful. We PA's have a lot to answer for and I ask you to empower yourself through knowledge. Mainly as this will make sure you are not a future victim for some other smooth talking nice man who sweeps you off your feet. My replies are often lengthy so apologise now but as you begin to understand me it is my way of going with the flow and making sense of my journey at same time. I am no expert I can sound it but all I have to go on is my experience and the course I went on for anger management. How often it seems we have a string of relationships after one quite long one. This year I will have known my wife for 31 years she is and has been the single most solid and secure part of my life. My first girlfriend and only sexual partner for 29 years. We seperated two years ago and in that time I have had three more relationships. When your ex has a major crisis in his life he might feel the need to sort himself out, to what extent I cannot say. I know for you the end of your relationship is and was a major crisis, but he will not have seen it the same way. As that would take too much being real and that is the last thing a PA is. You will see from my postings about my life crisis. Yes I do think he will go from one relationship to the next for the rest of his life and if they stop he might turn into a bitter lonely man. I think we PA's and Narcissists are capable of actions and attitudes that defy understanding by the majority of the population. A degree and a masters or even a phd is needed to understand us and work the processes needed. I believe the road ahead for any couple where one is a PA to be a very complicated and difficult path to tread. I think the change required is so massive and has its roots firmly entrenched in the past that recovery is very difficult. Only when the PA has seen that their actions are unacceptable can change begin. I did not feel they ever were until the past few months even though I knew something was not right with me. I honestly thought by keeping it to myself I was protecting everyone around me, the leash was drawn tight and the animal caged. I could not see the damage it still wreaked until lately when I began to open my eyes. I think we learn to create a false self which am reading about on the web site that Alicia has posted. This false self is the way I protected myself at an early age from suffering inconsistency from inaffective parenting. They did their best with the information they had but it still was not up to the required mark. The loss of the true self means in affect my emotional side was hidden away. I did not trust it and am only now just begining to make a relationship with this part and am sure it does not trust me so why should I ask you to? This loss of feelings has created a need in me to live through others, and especially women as you are much more in touch with your emotions and therefore more real as humans. I think we project on to you the ideal women to replace the one we think never had. Maybe you do the same with a man and all we end up doing is hurting each other as cannot live to that expectation. This need from women is for attention and praise, we lap it up in bucketfulls from those willing to give it. When for some small reason that changes we get stressed! we become agitated and anxious. Alarm bells ring inside and we want to run away, as our feelings are going haywire. We have no model no boundries as none was made or set when we needed them to be from our parents as they probably had none to pass on. My personal view point on this is we are seeing the effects of war on the population passed on down. My father fought in the war my mother was moved out of Coventry because of the bombing and seperated from her parents. I am the next generation and so are not so far removed from this event which caused so much pain around the world. We become skilled at seeing how situations (might) develop and so take action before it happens to protect ourselve from our inner world getting out of control. We are control freaks and can be very good at business, politics and conning people. To do this requires a certain coldness and blinkered vision of the world we live in. We live in our heads and think a lot we have no idea of our hearts until something whacks us when we are not looking. A death, divorce, birth of our child, tragic illness or loss of a job can affect us deeply and send us into temporay shock. Then it is just a matter of time before the control comes back and the status quo is re-installed. This is then my window it is the time i am using to work on myself. I am very mixed up and confused as that keeps it all well hidden but due to these conversations and a chat had with Alicia over the net tonight I am learning how I avoid and deflect questions which my seem nothing to you but to me threaten my very existence. For I live a lie, I am not who I think I am or could be. I am an imposter feeding on others to get my fix or I think I will die. This is all though a secret, and leaves partners like yourself knowing that something is not right and its your fault! So you feel guilty and ashamed and dont know why. I think this is because we PA's feel that inside and project it out to see it and have an opportunity to heal it. We dont though and instead re-invent ourselves again with hardly a look back. We dont empathise we you so we have no idea of the pain it causes, its put down to simple rational thinking. I feel uncomfortable and vulnerable here so am going before something very bad happens. I cant allow myself to feel helpless or powerless as then who am I? Not what pain is this causing my partner and how can I put it right? We would have to be in touch with our hearts for that and if we did that we would feel terrified and fearful. We are emotionally bankrupt and have no concept of what to live with feelings is like. Our history says they are painful and not to be trusted, and so we become painful and not to be trusted. I believe we create the reality we live in, if I think something with intention it will come to past. I have lived most of my 48yrs afraid of my feelings and have hid my pain and hurt as lived a lie. So I became a person who lied and was fearful of emotions and who caused pain and hurt because of it all. I never set out to do this but I have and still do it. I am learning and working on myself and am under no illusion this is going to be a long haul. I see myself as a recovering PA who is always going to be one and is just about how honest I can become. To what extent I learn to trust my inner world to stay open and be a real person with feelings daily is open for debate. The only answer I can give you is for you to become as aware and empowered as you can become about this and anything else in your life where you feel you give away or have your power taken from you. This is what I seek and is the pre-requesite for self responsibility in my opinion. I think when ever we 'see'(with feelings) the pain we cause others or ourselves we begin the journey of change. Thank you for the continued support offered here. Kim is managing a great place and has helped to create a safe place for us all to feel we can be open. I have been to the PA only place and was dissapointed by the lack of any response. I came here to look for support from fellow PA's who were wanting to work on thier issues, instead I have found the support from a group of compassionate people who have suffered from a PA. Why should I be surprised for you feel there is something wrong and therefore my best teachers as I only have thought something was wrong. Respect and peace Rod From: April   Posted: 01/25/03  Entered From: 24.166.156.208 One more thing...now that I've gotten three months' perspective on things, I would be willing even after everything to give this relationship another chance. I'm not a quitter so it really tore me apart to end this relationship. But of course it would take both of us working on it, and it's always his choice as to whether or not he wants to. I'm still hung up on him as there were so many good parts to the relationship. I've worked so hard to understand him, I feel as if I could handle things completely differently, though I would be afraid of messing up and making him not feel empowered. Subject: My boyfriend From: Pat  Posted: 01/23/03  Entered From: 205.188.208.139 Well, I don't know what I did, but he will not answer my phonecalls. So, he's extracting a pound of flesh for something I don't know I did. I'm hurt, I'm angry, I'm frustrated. I've left messages for him and today I left a pitiful one wherein I showed some of my true emotions of hurt and asked that he call me. It has just been so awful that I can't talk to him. My thought is I have the choice to simply walk away or wait a few weeks until he's over his anger and call him again. At present, I don't want to walk away, but it has been impossible for me not to call him over and over. Any advice on how I might develop patience? From: Pat P.  Date Posted: 02/01/03   From: 205.188.198.33 Hello to all who have been reading about me and my struggle with my PA boyfriend. I've also posted some comments in about my situation under "My Story as Pat P. To keep it all straight, the story right now is that my PA has dropped me for some unknown reason. I met this man in 1969, we dated, he introduced me to sex, and we had about a year-long affair. We lost track of each other, we both married and divorced, and I searched for him in 1996 and found him in Florida. We met again, he moved to my hometown in Ohio, we lived together, he moved out one day without telling me, and I've been pursuing him ever since. That has been going on since 1999. I've mooned over him, sobbed over him, got back together with him again, had sex with him again, felt wonderful again ---- and then he dropped me again. In fact has dropped me twice in the last few months. I have always pursued him. And, I keep calling him on his cellphone (he doesn't have a landphone) and what he is doing is screening his calls and if he sees my number, he does not answer. So for approximately the last 20 days, I have not spoken to him. Then, yesterday in my posting under "My Story," Lynn H. responded to my cries and one of the things she said was "Belive me when I tell you he knows what he's doing." Well, somehow that said it all. Thank you, Lynn. Thank you. My thinking today is that he is a pitiful and cruel person who doesn't qualify to be in my thoughts or my heart. He never did measure up, but I wanted it so much I fooled myself. I wanted everything I wished my future could be like. So, thank you, Kim, for your site. Watch out for Rod. I think he has real problems. If he cannot be constructive, I think banishment might be considered. Love to all - Pat From: Stacy  Date Posted: 02/01/03  Entered From: 24.162.4.116 I have had to work through the silent treatment issue. For a while I was convinced by the arguments that "he needed some space"; "he retreated because I demanded too much or things got too serious" (never understood that since I have a demanding career and not a lot of free time but I believed it anyway). When he finally would pick up the phone he was thrilled to hear from me, acted stunned that I thought anything was wrong, he was just busy, and indicated in a caring and loving way that this was another example of how I overreact to simple things like being out of touch. If I asked him if he was involved with anyone elase he would say this was an example of my overactive imagination. But, with some professional help, I have come to understand that this is all bs. Ignoring someone's calls for days is an intentional, cruel game. I can't tell you how much time I wasted trying to figure out what I did RIGHT that would cause him to finally answer the phone or call me back so I could do it again. I understand now that it is all random-nothing I did right that got him to talk to me. Just when he was ready and his game got old. From: Stacy  Date Posted: 02/01/03   From: 24.162.4.116 Divesting emotionally is still different than divesting intellectually. I am still working on getting out of the situation. But what has helped is that I understand a lot more about what has been going on; I don't feel like I am operating in the dark so much. And I no longer feel like it is all my fault. Counseling has helped a lot. Being more aware when he and I do talk has helped (of course when he sensed me moving away, he turned up the charm). What complicates it for me is that we had been good friends for a long time-it only got weird when we got involved the last year. So I am having to deal with losing a good friend on top of dealing with his behaviors and the pain it all caused me, which I bured and excused and blamed myself for over the past 16 months. From: Pat P.  Date Posted: 02/01/03  Entered From: 152.163.197.198 Stacey, I promise you it will get better. You are a good person. Remember that. I want you to know that I feel good. I feel like a weight was lifted off me and I have let him go. You will find your way. Take care. From: April  Date Posted: 01/24/03  Entered From: 24.166.156.208 It's all about 1) a power play on his part and 2) his fear of getting close to you. Maria is right. Let him come after you. He's got to realize that HE can hurt you too! PAs don't seem to realize the hurt they cause others. Let him run. Let him make a mountain out of a molehill the way my PA BF did as well (or as you so aptly put it, extracting a pound of flesh). And then hopefully he'll realize what a fool he's been and ring YOU up. By the way, my ex-BF, who I had a very serious relationship with for 8 1/2 months (he is twice divorced with 5 kids, and this was his 5th AND MOST serious relationship in the 7 years since his second divorce), is evidently now in the hook-and-charm phase with a new woman. They have great difficulty being alone. From: Maria    Date Posted: 01/24/03   From: 40.0.96.2 Dear Pat, Unfortunately from personal experience the worst thing you can do it keep ringing him up. I have lived through this hell and the best thing you can do it not ring him at all and let him ring you. I know this sounds very simple in writing but it is extremely difficult. The only thing you should do when the tempation is so great to ring him is leave the house, go visit a friend or go for a walk. Sometimes you feel that you must talk to me but believe me it is the worst anything a woman can do. I have been chasing my husband for the last nine years always ringing him up and fussing over him when we had an argument and it has led me down the road to misery. Be patient and let him come to you, there was something I read yesterday that really made me think "to revitalize a relationship: If you have always been a pursuer you will have to distance yourself to recapture a runaway. If you pull back you will be amazed to find the runaway pursuing you". I am presently trying to do this with my husband and even though it is a long road it seems to work. When we are angry I do not ring him and the wait is agonising. Please take your mind off him and do not keep chasing him because he will feel that he has you in the palm of his hand and in the long run will walk over you. There are so many painful things I could tell you but will not because somethings are too painful and personal to tell, but please if you learn nothing else in your live, learn to be patient and to step back. Good luck. From: Pat  Date Posted: 01/24/03  Entered From: 205.188.208.139 To Maria - Thanks. Your message really helps. Yes, I knew that, but guess I needed someone to tell me. You are certainly correct about the agonizing wait. Best to you too. Pat Subject: I WILL do it From: scout148  Date Posted: 01/23/03  Entered From: 24.209.233.99 Hi Group, I found this sight about 18 months ago and it has changed my life. Although my husband was diagnosed as a PA 8 years ago, I didn't understand how that was responsible for the turmoil in our life. That counselor urged me to be treated for depression that had been brought on by the previos 7 years of emotional battery. It took me about 5 years to undo the harm to my self esteem. I had once been a very confident, professional woman. I found myself feeling so worthless I couldn't get out of bed and praying to die. I'm still married to this man. (on paper alone). I am in the process of rebuilding my life. I am back at work,changing careers,and am readying myself to become financialy independent. You are all my inspiration and my hope. To those of you who think you are powerless and alone, I say to you, take today to do something positive for yourself. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. Be patient, get determined, Love yourself. My heart goes out to all of you, because I know when you're at your lowest, the one you love kicks you lower. STAND UP! Subject: Frustrated and Confused From: Patti   Posted: 01/20/03 Entered From: 216.221.81.98 I have been married for almost six years now to an individual that I believe possesses many of the traits of a passive-aggressive. These traits have resulted in the slow break down of our relationship and our family unit. The result for me as been an all-encompassing feeling of being alone and what I like to call 'crazy making'. Last year we went to marriage counselling but were not succussful. My husband eventually dropped out but I continued to go. The counsellor helped me to see that the difficulty we were experiencing was not all my fault, that I was not the hysterical, controlling woman while my husband was not the completely normal man who had done nothing to provoke the disagreements at home. Unfortunately, this has not improved the relationship at all. I still feel so alone and isolated, and often confused. My husband is never responsible for anything, and as a result I get so tired. We are not able to communicate at all, as soon as I ask a question my husband does not want to deal with, the physical reaction is similar to that of a panic attack. He is never on time, he is never where he says he will be, lies by outright commission or more frequently, omission. He has promised me just about everything but never follows through. I am just about at the end of my rope. Sometimes I just want to leave but I am not sure that is the right way to deal with this either. When I married him it was for better or worse, but I don't know how much worse it can be. I am depressed and frustrated and have just realized that after six years of marriage he is still a stranger to me. I don't have any idea of what he thinks or feels or wants. I don't know how to reach him or even how to communicate with him on a basic level. I would appreciate any assistance with ideas for communicating with my husband. I am at a point now where I just don't know what to do anymore. from: Susan  Date Posted: 01/22/03  Entered From: 24.196.117.252 Patti: You H sounds like mine, especially the promise anything, deliver nothing part. Living with a PA is crazy making to say the least. I have been married to mine for 31 years and we are currently in our third try at marriage counseling. His tact this time is to admit he is guilty of everything. Of course, I know he doesn't really believe that but I think it is how he is trying to get through this. Yesterday I discovered that our local woman's abuse shelter considers the psychological trauma of living with a PA to be true abuse. They have evening groups along with 1 on 1 counseling that is free. The best part is that they KNOW how the PA works and what he is trying to do. In traditional counseling, the PA is frequently able to manipulate the counselor. There is a good book that explains a lot about PA called "Living With The Passive Aggressive Man". The author's name is Wetzler. I ordered my copy through the local book store. If nothing else, it will show you that you are NOT crazy but that PA behavior can make you feel crazy. There is a private board to post to here that requires a password. That is also a great place to get support. Read all you can in the archives and other people's postings to get an idea of how the PA uses their partner. Good luck. From: Patti  Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 216.221.81.98 Thanks for the referral. I started reading the book this morning and I guess it is a start. We tried counselling before but I was the only one who showed up. My H actually goes from innocent to guilty and then back again in less than 30 seconds if he thinks the situation warrants it. Good luck to you as well, I hope the counselling is beneficial. From: Rod   Date Posted: 01/20/03  Entered From: 62.30.112.1 Patti I am sorry you are experiencing this situation in your marriage. I have lived with my wife for 30 years and she is still frustrated by me though we no longer together. She can see I am trying to sort myself out but she is solid with emotional side and I am not. I just started to really learn what they are, and how they affect me. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and it was her outburst at me which made me realise just what i had done to her. This was only a few weks ago and it hurt me to see how she had feared me because of my hidden anger which she never saw. I hid it from her and she saw it as a weapon I kept ready for the day it was too be used! I hid it because i was afraid of it! So sometimes there are two stories and view points that merge to create the problem. If you are in tune though with your emotions and he is not then it is never going to be easy. I taught myself to cry about 10yrs ago when realised I had so much problems with crying when nearly lost my daughter. I just could not cry although felt the fear and mess inside. Explain to your husband what you feel and what you want to see happen, tell him it is about two people making it work. Your depression and frustration are signs of anger and so do you express it to him or bottle it away? If you could get clear about your anger maybe you wiill make it safe for him to ger real and learn to express his. If you want to read some of the postings below they may help. You are not alone here and am sure there are plenty of women who can offer you their expereince from a womens perspective. All the best rod FROM: Patti  Date Posted: 01/28/03  Entered From: 216.221.81.98 I wanted to thank you for the male perspective. To be honest I wonder sometimes if my H is even capable of feeling anything. Sometimes he appears to be completely without empathy of any sort. I have tried to explain things to him, I have tried to explain my feelings of frustration and loneliness but he just doesn't hear me. He just stares at a blank space on the wall, and says nothing. I know his background is very different from mine, his relationship with his mother is complicated to say the very least. I think I get so frustrated because if he is incapable of feeling or of expressing that feeling then what future is there? Any way, I digress, I simply wanted to say thank you for your perspective. Subject: Capable of love? From: Marci   Posted: 01/20/03  Entered From: 67.213.13.83 Is a passive aggressive person truly capable of loving another person? From: Rod    Date Posted: 01/20/03  Entered From: 62.30.112.1 As someone who has lived in their head for nearly all of my 48 yrs I would have to say not until they have learnt to live with feelings and from their heart. In my opinion I have acted the way I have done in my life from ignorance and the underdeveloped emotional aspects of me. Could I have done what I do if I had been in touch with my feelings? I doubt it. Rod From: Marci  Date Posted: 01/21/03 Entered From: 67.213.13.222 Rod, thank you for your honesty. How were you able to get in touch with your feelings? Counseling? My husband of twenty-eight years is most definitely living in his head. He has done things that I would have NEVER believed he was capable of. He also has shut me out emotionally, sexually, etc. I feel like I can't go on with him any longer if he doesn't seek counseling and change his behavior. Tonight I gave him that ultimatum. He agreed to go. Now, I'm wondering if it will even help since he didn't reach that conclusion on his own. It's like I'm forcing him to go and what good is that? From: Rod  Date Posted: 01/21/03  Entered From: 62.31.64.2 Marci you have put up and tolerated for so long why now get guilty? Dont doubt yourself or beat up yourself! You are an equal and not subservient. You are showing you care by at last telling him, if he does not see that it is a choice he makes, even if from the head. There has to be a spark to light a fire! You sound like a person who has a lot of feelings of anger about what you have suffered over 28 years. What do you do with these feelings? do you express them or like me sit on them and let them fester inside into resentment? In my experience relationships where anger is not healthy and safe affect both parties. My wife was never angry directly with me over our life though she was on several occassions with other people. This terrified me! so I was in fear of her anger and now from a few weeks ago know she was in fear of my unexpressed anger and so we had a very unhealthy relationship around anger. I now think it is unhealthy to not express anger and also unhealthy to express it when it is destructive. To tell someone your angry and this is why is very different from raging in a aggressive manner. When you think back how was your husband around deaths births illnes's? This might give you and him a place to start. Does he shed a tear in solitude? I was affected by my childrens births and family deaths but had to be on my own. I sat up late every night and watched films that moved me and learnt to cry my eyes out in safety for me. This past christmas I screamed and sobbed with the presure in my head as my daughters held me as thought of my loss around my parents deaths. In particular my step father, has held him while he died, he turns out to be also the same man who I think squashed my feelings when I was three when he went for me in a rage. I learnt after that to not show my emotions, and not just anger but the whole range. When I mentioned it in therapy 17yrs ago they said it was for talking and not for emotions so left therapy. Last weekend I went on my anger management weekend and first day I was tearful about an exercise and Mike the leader took me through a role play with other members of the group. I was shaking and babbling a lot as had regressed am told. I could not say what was asked of me to say to my stand in step dad so called in someone else to show me. He went for it and then I was invited in to also say the words. I took several attempts before hitting the button! I shouted at him raged at him screamed at him and was left very deeply affected. Since I have wrote lots of posting here and am trying to go with the flow. Its all new to me and sometimes I dont understand what the hell is going on. Yesterday I raged at a man in real situation for first time in my life it was destructive it was unhealthy but for me it was a breakthrough I was free of that bind now I move on. I am so grateful for all this opportunity to correspond with people has have tried through the PA's only with no success. We are all affected by this and I have wanted to be free for so long of my inner nightmare, so when i posted my story was very surprised to get replies from people who were not PA! this has shown me that my best way forward is to engage with people who live with or have been affected by a person like me, as they will not take the bull and tell me how it is for them. It was only just before xmas I said to myself I have a difficulty with anger and confrontation so lets look at that. I admitted to myself my shortcomings, the pain and shame since has been a shock to me as I just thought I need to learn to be angry and that will be it! How short sightedness can the mind be? Well as you can see have no problem in writing like this or talking when am opened up. Socially though am very poor at communicating as when the talking starts i swing into topics about my inner world and people accuse me of being too deep! So I dont go there and have few friends and will never do until I learn to live with my feelings and maybe then can truly love someone from the heart. Good luck and am here if you want to continue to write. Rod From: Kate   Posted: 01/31/03  Entered From: 195.93.34.8 Rod, thankyou so much for sharing your feelings with so much openness and honesty. The man in my life sounds similar to what you were like. After breaking up with him after being together a few months last year, we have now got back together again and after only a few weeks, all the signs of PA behaviour have started to rear their ugly heads again. He never gets angry, he never shows emotion, I know he's been hurt deeply in the past, but just bulldozers through life as if nothing can touch him. This week he's e mailed me to ask me to slow down, just when I was starting to think our relationship was starting to develop deeper, I suspect that as soon as he starts to feel attached to someone he turns tail and runs right away and tells me I'm putting him under pressure. Thing is, any problems we have in our relationship are always my fault,according to him I'm too emotional, I want too much love, I demand too much time, I'm too serious about life, etc etc etc, unfortunately he's hitting my insecurity button time and time again and I'm starting to believe him and loose my self respect. I wouldnt let a friend treat me this way, unfortunately the man I see behind the mask of PA is someone i'd like to spend the rest of my life with and i persist with it, but how can i get through to a man that refuses to acknowledge he might be wrong? I am usually such a strong, capable, intelligent and confident woman, but feel so hopeless to do anything about this, that I may have to break it off once again. Maybe I should show him this web site and tell him my fears about his behaviour, he'll probably say I'm a crazy person and run a mile, but maybe theres a chance he might take it on board one day. I have nothing to loose I guess. What brought about the change for you Rob? How did you recognise that all wasnt well in your life? sorry if I have rambled on for a bit, but i needed to sound off somewhere Kate Subject: Read up on NARCISSISM - a sister to Passive Aggression? From: Alicia  Date Posted: 01/19/03  Entered From: 67.80.68.91 The only thing that could come close to my shock at discovring this website and it's remarkable descriptions of my boyfriend's behavior, was discovering the Narcissism website. Just when you think you understood PA behavior, this narcissism stuff will chill you to the bone. It helped explain my boyfriend's behavior beyond PA, when I thought there couldn't be anything worse than PA. Good luck. I'm going to get my head examined. Link URL: http://samvak.tripod.com/msla.html From: Georgia  Date Posted: 02/06/03  Entered From: 12.90.188.225 Alica, thank you so much for posting that address. I had been to that site but had not read that particular writing. Wow! Talk about hitting the nail on the head! It is clear to me that my husband is both passive aggressive AND has Narcistic Personality Disorder, as professionals here have also diagnosed. I didn't really understand how accurate they were or exactly what was involved until I spent several hours reading that work. This means, as therapists here have told me, that there is really, really, really nothing I can do to change the situation. He is not going to discuss marital issues, there will never be a good sexual relationship, he will never be able to keep a job should he find another that will have him. I do not have a marriage, something that friends have tried to tell me. Now I understand. At the risk of getting stoned, please tell me, folks, do any of you feel sorry for what was done TO these people as children, or are you mainly angry for what these narcissists and PAs have done to you? Should they be divorced if it wasn't their fault that they are as they are? Or is divorce the only survival mechanism for the spouse? Is there any reason to feel guilt over leaving them? From: KIM    Date Posted: 02/07/03   From: 168.166.190.219 NO!!!! Do I feel bad for what happened to them.. sure.. DO I think that I should have to take that abuse for the rest of my life because of it for some bizzare compensation HELL NO.... I did not have the best childhood either but I do not seek out to harm others to make up for it, and I try to give to MY child what I didn't have; a loving environment, knowing that this will heal my OWN CHILDHOOD. instead of running around spending the rest of my adulthood crying about my childhood, taking it out on others and feeling justified because of my childhood.... Get help.. get yourself some help... you do not have the right to take out on the rest of the world your misfortunes.. they did nothing to you, except probably try to LOVE you... From: Susan  Date Posted: 01/26/03  Entered From: 24.196.117.252 I printed out the article (all 16 pages!!) to read at my leisure. It sure sounds like there were some parallels to my H. When I left yesterday a.m. to meet a friend for breakfast (LOL. We meet for breakfast and talk until well after lunch), I left the article out with a note for my H that he might find the reading interesting if not disturbing. (We are currently in couples counseling which started before I discovered this website. He says he is very open to working on this PA stuff but with his past record, it may just be his manipulation of the situation until we stop seeing the counselor). Anyway, when I got home, he had read it over and underlined several things that he related too. What scares me is how many of the "symptoms" he has. He noted more than the minimum of five the article stated. Since PA and narcissism are difficult to treat, it is difficult to know where this will lead. Today my H asked me to talk and he did share some stuff but he often lapses into an almost hypnotic voice and talks about his love for me. I kept bringing him back to the subject he originally brought up. He noticed the distance between us and listened to my reasons for it. He noted especially the lack of sex (unlike most PA's, my H has always been very active in that area) and said he "understood." I asked him if he felt "entitled" to sex since we were married and he said yes, he did. He did several times reassure me that he wasn't going to threaten divorce (which is what he commonly did when we had a disagreement that was escalating). I then told him that I had a time frame in which I expected to see change and that I wasn't able to reassure him of the same. I told him it was a reasonable amount of time but only I knew what it was. He actually seemed humbled by this. However, the rest of the day he has been whistling and singing. Go figure. Anyway, thanks for posting that site. Information is knowledge. From: Rod  Date Posted: 01/21/03  Entered From: 62.31.64.2 Thank you Alicia for posting this. My feelings now having read the first page are very mixed but shame is very much a large part. I saw myself all the way through this article and although could not agree with the successful position and person of importance in society I felt more like a working class model of the Narcissist. I am going to send it to my support people who I am trying to build up so they can see what they are dealing with more. chilling is a very apt word and I was chilled cold to read words which I cannot deny. I just hope with all this I have a chance as sometimes when I read such stuff as this it paints such a bleak picture. If I had read this before say christmas I dont think I would have been so willing to see myself as clearly so prehaps there is hope yet. Thank you again Rod Subject: To Rod From: Alicia  Date Posted: 01/21/03   From: 67.80.68.91 Rod, your candid responses to these posts are so helpful to me, you couldn't imagine. It give me such hope that my boyfriend could have a fraction of the reality you seem to be facing with such care. My question to you is, I am in a tizzy trying to figure out if I want to present Passive Aggressive information to him, or Narcissistic behavoir information. I feel pretty strongly that he is a good amount of both. Do you feel that had you read about Narcissim FIRST, before learing about PA, that it would have caused you to turn a deaf ear to it? Possibly due to it's "harsher" context? The last line of your post said if you had read this before Christmas you might not have been willing to see yourself so clearly. What, exactly, brought you to the realization of PA? I need to be careful in presenting this to my guy becuase I feel I have only ONE CHANCE to do it right, I want to do it carefully, kindly, and with definite facts so he doesn't feel I'm attacking him. Any insight you could provide would be totally appreciated. Thanks again Rod, and super-congratulations on your obvious path to discovery and awareness, and if most of all, healing. Alicia Subject: Alicia From: Rod  Date Posted: 01/21/03  Entered From: 62.30.112.3 Alicia thank you for your posting and hope I can do it some justice, am sure there are far more knowledgeable people than me on this subject. If you have read my story and my postings you will know a bit about me by now. I am trying and seem to be on a helter skelter ride which is like its started and it wont stop now. But am no expert or have done it and have answers for you or anyone especially me. When I first looked at myself I knew anger was an issue. I looked around for anything but anger management as I "did not have a problem with ANGER" I said to my Doctor I wanted to learn to be angry and express it, to be coached. So this is why I set out on my quest, as I had recognised and was determined to free myself. To try and do what I think was right for me first as then hopefully I will be able to help others. As always have wanted to help others, have worked with young people, mental health, people with learning difficulties, probation and now in schools teaching 'african drumming'. All have helped me though as learnt a lot about me. Now I intend to train in anger management as I know it will help me and then secondly others. If thats selfish then thats what am becoming as have always put others first in my life. At least that is what I thought! but the truth is probably more like I was only doing that for myself. [InspirationTransformation] for Mon, Jan 6, 2003 this is a newsletter from Lynne Namka, Ed. D. Who was one of the people I first wrote to to seek guidance and help. This newsletter is one which moved me as again was filled with useful information about me. I will forward it to Kim to see if she will post it, as Lynne gives permission for material to be copied from her newsletters. Or I can forward to you if you are happy to give out your email. If not open a hotmail temporaly so can send it. My advice to get down to your request is quite simple. You need to be clear with your boyfriend what you feel and how you are in the realtionship. It is going to seem risky and may even feel like you are giving up power but in fact you will be empowering you and thats what matters here. Be gentle and assertive in writing or if face to face ask he just listens to you with out interuption so you can say your peace and then you would like him to say his or have some space if he needs before replying. If there are particular issues or events then raise though and be clear about them from your perspective and in your opinion. Remember with all this he will have his opinion which might be different than yours, he needs that valued. Tell him it is how you see and feel it, and that you would like to both of you work at the relationship. Please dont attatck or blame as it will do a disservice to you and only send him into PA or child behaviour. Stay in adult and refuse to enter into any games or manipulation he might throw at you. The best way to defuse his games is by not biting or pushing him away. Instead bring him back to how you feel and hold in your mind he is a victim also and needs help. This will help you stay in adult as you write or talk to him. Try as much as possible to keep saying 'I' and not 'you', this is not easy but am working on it and it works! From your posting you sound like someone who is very aware so am not trying to preach just offering my thoughts as they come to me. I would not show him the link you posted about Narcissim as it is very disturbing and especially to someone who is going to be very raw with his emotions. I am reminded by Mike on the course who said several times he had to check in when taking me through my role play that he was not 'abusing' by allowing his shadow to come and take it out on me through pushing or punishment as I was in child and very vunerable. I respect him for that, he was aware he could or might if he did not check in. I found Lynne's article very helpful and also other information around this site. For me though it was the page of B.A.A.M which is UK site, so has significance for me. The page about the intensive weekends just hit home as I was thinking it was about people who were Angry what I read was amazing as it was me! I cried at reading it for I felt here was a chance or way to be free from this. I think any PA must have similar thoughts that 'there is something wrong with me and I have to fight it all my life to get somewhere'. It is tiring and it is draining I could no longer function after loosing my parents last year, I gave up my battle and now instead am changing what needs to be changed as it is more healthy that way. The B.A.A.M site and link to page described is: http://www.angermanage.co.uk/index_frameset_1.html You will be successful if you hold the right intention, this is to me the all important quality. If your intention is destructive or punishing it is what you will be, if however you are as willing as you seem from your letters then hold healing for both of you and it will happen. I wish you well and may you find peace in whatever happens. Rod Subject: To Rod Again From: Alicia  Date Posted: 01/21/03   Entered From: 67.80.68.91 Thanks again Rod for your insightful response. I would love to see any info you have to share, please feel free to email me any links to info you feel I could find helpful: shelbi10@optonline.net Your comment about not showing him the Narcissism stuff hit me like a brick, it made the decision clear that I will not show him that until I discuss it fully with my psychiatrist, or until he has seen a mental health professional. I am suprised, though, all this past year crying to my psychiatrist (I never needed one before him) crying about my boyfriend. The doc never picked up on the Cluster B personality disorders I so clearly saw upon reading about them. My guy is a buffet of the Cluster B, any and/or all of them. I discovered PA (this site) on 12/23, right before Christmas, and have been gathering info and "dropping little tidbits" of info about it, without saying anything about it really, just to see his reaction. I am amazed and floored becuase he seems to not fight me on any of it. I always expect him to pounce or leave when I (delicately) bring to light a behavior of his that I am uncomfortable with. He defends, as usual. But he seems approachable. But you are right, I think, the narcissism stuff knocked me right outta my chair when I read it. Reading about the PA behavior only had me gasping for breath and clutching my gut. I have printed out virtually every page from this site and want to sit down and talk with him about it. I am filled with hope that he will take this well. I am going to see the psychiatrist Wednesday evening, hopefully we can work out a "game plan" on what I should do next. Thanks again Rod, keep me posted on what you learn and whatnot, I like reading about what you're doing with your "treatment." Email any time, I feel like we can share due to our shared "knowledge." All the best, Alicia From: Rod  Date Posted: 01/22/03  Entered From: 62.30.112.1 Am still reeling from the web site you posted, be positive and not guilty! Read more of it in the night and it shook me up all over again. I believe I have a chance but only when I realise there is no chance! Does that make sense to you? I suppose its like an alcoholic or drug addict or someone who is sick in some self inflicted way facing the fact they are sick and not 'normal'. I am numb with it just now its 10 here and have had a very reduced sleep, though still keen to come on to PA and look for letters so I can reply. I clearly have many narcissism tendencies and would have to say that by having a daughter with a heart condition it has probably saved me from going into it forever and not even trying to change. To me it is no co-incidence my 17 yrs of seeking my truth is as old as she is. I first went into therapy by turning up at the hospital 'demanding to be sorted' as something very wrong in me! how narcisstic can I be? The daft thing is when after 12/18 mths got into a real emotion via a red mist explosion at home when on my own, they said to me it was inappropriate. Confirming my childhood life so stuffed it all back down again. Loosing both parents last year and taking my daughter in for investigative tests and possible operation was just too much! so again the narcisstic bit of overload coming out before doing something. Like when I hit my 'buddy' bag with my base ball bat it took a lot of emotional 'hits' to make me seek help. I don't envy your task ahead one bit and can see why most people would walk when the opportunity arises. I think though we create our reality by our thoughts and intentions. So even if we try and avoid something it comes back at us but maybe in big time. There is no escape only through isolation as by having a human relationship inevitably brings pain and separation. I admire you for giving it a go as it will 'heal' you at same time. maybe you just need to learn more about assertiveness and saying 'NO'? Do not let anyone have power over you for if you do then you are hurting yourself. Self punishment could be best way of seeing it. Self punishment is something I know about as that is fundamental part of a narccism. Through communication both sides have an opportunity to grow, develop and heal in peace. How apt that is just now in the world between our two countries and the world. Keep learning for you and then others will be inspired, don't try and fix or rescue but instead give the gift of empowerment through discovery. Although am sending you this as email with the newsletter am posting it for others to read. All the best Rod Subject: Re:Read up on NARCISSISM - a sister to Passive Aggression? From: kim  Date Posted: 01/20/03  Entered From: 64.158.173.49 Alicia: This has been discussed many times on the site... However, for some reason, I have never added any links to the site for it, execept for a general mental health link which describes all disorders.... Thanks.. Will take a look at this site and may add it to the link page here on this site...   Subject: Trying to Get Back on Track From: Leah  Date Posted: 01/14/03  Entered From: 155.72.100.4 I have not posted in several months. After exiting a very toxic and destructive relationship that began a little over one year ago, I decided to have "no contact" with this man and we did not speak for almost 3 months. To provide background: he is in his late 50's, a widower for 2 years and I am 49, divorced for 10 years. We first broke up 1 year ago, then he was always calling me, saying he was lonely and wanting to see me. He said that he did not have anyone else in his life and i believed him. I discovered several months later that he had been seeing this other woman since he had broken up with me. Every time we tried to discuss an issue between us, he would say "we need to take a break" and he just shut off the communication. I became very frustrated and suggested that yes, maybe we were not compatible, but I enjoyed his company and friendship and thought I could make that transition. It seems that every time we would meet, he wanted to have a physical only relationship and nothing more. This is not a part of me, nor do I share, especially when the other woman knows nothing about what is going on. This man just kept saying that he was confused and that he could not decide what he wanted. i told him not to call me until he figured out what he wanted and that if he wanted a friendship, I could do that, but on equal terms. I also asked him not to call me until we had time apart form each other so the both of us could realistically decide what we both wanted. A while back he called me and said that he wanted to see me. We talked and I thought the relationship was going to be renewed. I was at his home one evening and was preparing to stay when he tells me that I had to get dressed and leave, that his girlfriend may call him and that he wouldn't feel comfortable speaking with her in my presence. I was so angry I could barely speak let alone provide an angry response. I walked out and he called me a week later. He called me before the holidays in December and then to also wish me a Happy New Year (from the bottom of his heart). He says these things with such "sincerity" it is almost laughable. I know I crossed my own boundaries of decent behavior on this. maybe I was too trusting, I don't know and find it hard to accept that I allowed this behavior for as long as I did. Recently a girlfriend asked me if I was still speaking with him and I answered "no" when I was. This made me realize that if I cannot even admit my own behavior, I am in trouble so I cut off all contact. This was over two weeks ago and I have not heard from him yet. I don't know if he si still with this other woman, but I assume so. Why would he seek out a relationship, even just a physical one, when he already considers this other woman his girlfriend. (this other woman has been seeing him for almost 1 year and from what I hear she treats him terribly and has no intentions of committing to him). Right now I am doing OK- I know this man is very destructive and has no place in my life. I think I am now questioning how I was not able to 100% and completely walk away months ago. He is out of my life for good. I hold no dreams about his ever changing or becoming the person I would want, yet I am angry at myself for accepting this for so long. From: Susan  Date Posted: 01/24/03  Entered From: 24.196.117.252 Di: It was such a relief to read your post. I have a PA son and after much reflection have realized my daughter also has some of the attributes of the PA. In a nutshell, they treat me with such disrespect. For the last 1-1/2 years, my daughter (whom I used to be very close to until she married a classic abusive conrolling man) will not talk to me or let me see my granddaughter. Only his parents are allowed which is so sad for me. My son is gay and will never have children. My granddaughter came about due to artificial insemination because my SIL is sterile. But only his parents can see the child. At Christmas, I sent my son a Christmas card and he called me up to tell me he was getting a restraining order against me so I can't send him anything else ever. My heart breaks daily. I digress, but it was a relief to see your post. I keep blaming myself for not seeing my H's behavior until the last 2-1/2 months. I always thought everything was my fault until I found this site. Yes, my H has been a good teacher, too. He told our kids that everything I did was controlling (i.e. giving them chores, having expectations like finishing homeword, coming home on time). I'm starting counseling at a women's shelter that considers the psychological abuse of the PA to be as dibilitating and dangerous to the woman as physical abuse. I suspect I will be leaving my H this year because from everything I've read, it is rare for the PA or "psychological abuser" which is the term used in abuse counseling circles to change. They feel entitled to do what they do and even if they feel guilty about the pain they cause, it is overridden by their justifications and excuses. I really can't live like this much longer.

PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE HELPING HAND

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