MESSAGEBOARD ARCHIVES |
Subject: My Story From: Rod Date Posted: 01/14/03 Entered From: 62.30.112.3 Message: I am a 48 year old man living in England UK. I have just completed an intensive weekend in Anger Management. The course was facilitated by the British Association of Anger Management and Mike Fisher. I discovered that I was a PA or Imploder just before this past xmas. It took the death of both of my parents last year to spiral me into a place where I felt I was never going to come back from. I knew I had issues with my parents and often would blame them for my mess of a life. I have had depression on and off and only lost my temper twice during my life. The first time was the 'red mist' and was on my own, so hurt no-one. The second was to try to shame my dad for my life and that it was all his fault. Last year I held him as he died and discovered how much I loved him but could never say it because of my inner hate and anger. By xmas I had gone into a very deep depression, I gave up my work and decided the money I had was to last for a few months because I needed time to look at my issues and my inner hell. I had reached the point where enough was enough. I stopped going out and started to vegetate and contemplate on my life. I have three wonderful children, the youngest has a heart condition and has had to endure years of rebuilding surgery and more to come. I am seperate from my wife of 30 years who was my only girlfriend, though we still share same house. In december I started to look for answers to why I had a problem with anger. I am a classic 'Pleaser' and in our time together my wife and I never crossed words or ever argued. I knew confrontation bothered me and in fact anger in general. I wanted someone to teach me to be angry and let it out. I often catch myself brewing up! or festering the feelings inside but never voice or physically let them out. I found some very nice web sites and wrote to Bert Hoff in the US who recommended John Lee's books and gave me the web address of B.A.A.M. here in UK. I visited there site and discovered I was an Imploder and was very touched and moved to tears by information! here were people who understood me! they knew me and yet we had never met. I enquired about a course in February but two weeks ago my wife verbally shouted and lost her temper with me. I stood there as she let rip and heard her saying all the things I have spent my entire life trying to avoid doing to any people let alone my wife. I was intimidating because I never showed her my feelings or my anger, as i walked away. She saw this as my anger was to be avoided as it was so bad. I saw it as it was so bad I wanted to avoid it. She no longer felt scared of me and wanted me to know it. I heard it loud and clear and immediately got on phone and told BAAM needed to be there this last weekend as they had the January workshop. Luckily they let me on and went last Friday for an intensive weekend. I was shocked to discover on the saturday I was feeling very scared and voiced it about a process. The next thing I know we are acting out a role play and I choose a man to stand opposite me, who had no problem in being angry and hitting people etc. He was 6'4" and a face ready to explode! I started to quiver and shake all over as I tried to raise my voice to say what Mike the leader had picked up from me I needed to say. I felt shame and hurt and tried to avoid it all but Mike was too aware and would not let me get away with anything. I eventually chose another man to represent me now and he said the words for me to the first man, then I was invited back in to say what I needed to. I was encouraged and felt very safe and supported by the other 11 people in the room and so voiced my anger from an incident that happened at age 3 or 4. (This incident had left me very afraid of anger and in fact for the rest of my life anger was not allowed in my parents or my families.) I finaly got into a feeling of anger and let rip myself, it shook me to my core and left me deeply moved. The man opposite said he felt it like it was the end, that he was going to die himself and in that feeling he saw an amazing power of life. I had started the healing process and now I must do some very serious work. I am ashamed of my decision to waste my life and hold onto the anger and try instead to hurt my parents by becoming a failure as a revengeful action. I feel so much better now after this weekend that the past 44 years of pain leaves me so sad that I was so unhappy for so long and did not need to be. The rest of my life has started now and have made some good new friends who are keen also to keep contact and support each other in the next steps on our paths. I am so determined to let anything again control my life and for me to then become a contoller and dependent person. I have discovered I am important and I need to value that and find some self esteem and self respect. Even in seperation my wife gives me gems to help me on my journey, I acknowledge her for her courage and willingness to give me the gift of anger. I am learning to not explode against or implode against myself but see how anger is my friend and is just telling me I am hurting inside and that needs my attention and not my defense or attack strategies. Inter-dependency is my new word and one I wish to learn and discover about. May my story help you to deal with your passive aggressiveness or help you to deal with someone who is afraid of confronting their fears and demons. It is not easy but the rewards are just so amazing, a sense of freedom for the first time in my life is coming to me. Email me or respond as here as you feel drawn too. thankyou for your patience in reading down to this farewell. Rod :-) From: Carrie Date Posted: 01/28/03 Entered From: 169.71.80.21 Message: Rod, Your post is very interesting and enlightening. Thanks. I wondered if you might answer a question for me. I had a relatiobship with a PA, who I loved very much. After a very rocky year with him, I moved out only to find later that there had been lies, cheating, etc. I have had no contact with him for 7 months and he has made no attempt to contact me. Is it worth contacting him now to maybe bring some closure/understanding or should I just let it go completely? From: Rod Date Posted: 01/28/03 Entered From: 62.30.0.2 Message: Carrie I am not sure I am the best person to be asking this especially just now. You sound like I feel just now which is in a state of confusement so I feel for that. It must be very painful to Love someone so much and be treated so bad. I am sure you have tried so hard to make things right and fix the situation, and then got trapped in an endless pattern and cycle of emotional abuse by him. It is abuse but he does not see it or understand it as he cant empathise with you and how you must feel. He just does not feel! My advice to you is to write to him and maybe never send it, instead use it a process to help you heal. Write a first letter with all your anger and hatred for what he put you through. Then after reflection write a second and third, for them to be effective you need to let out all the venom you feel. Holding back is just going to cause you pain now and in the future and he is not worth suffering for. I wish you peace Rod Subject: Thank you for your understanding and perspective! From: Carrie Date Posted: 01/28/03 Entered From: 65.59.100.74 Message: ...and good luck in your healing as well!! From: Pat P. Posted: 01/25/03 Entered From: 205.188.208.139 Message: I am trying to understand my PA boyfriend and to try to overcome the things he does. Right now, he has run away from me by not returning my phonecalls. This is devastating to me in that I miss even the sound of his voice. I haven't been able to see him or talk to him for almost two weeks. Sounds like a short time, but not if you love someone so much. I know he's angry at me for something. Something that I read in one of your messages is that the anger covers up hurt, but the PA is not in touch with the hurt. So, something I did really hurt him is what I surmise from this. Let me ask you directly. Is a PA capable of deep feelings of love? I think so. Because, funny as it may seem, I know my boyfriend loves me even though he has run away from me and hurt me in the process. I expect that he will "get over" the perceived hurt and will then accept and return my phonecalls. What do you think? From: Rod Date Posted: 01/25/03 Entered From: 194.117.133.198 Message: Hi Pat thank you for asking me for my opinion, I am not going to pretend I have the answers or am an expert on this though do have some experience which might help you. When I said that hurt is under anger it is not from now that the hurt or shame is to be found. It is from the past especially when I was a young child in all my innocence and vulnerability. I felt shame guilt and hurt from circumstances that led me to be anxious and agitated. No great abuse physically or sexually but there was a lack of emotional nuturing in the family. Ever since though have had a sense of fear which is unhealthy. These feelings have returned these past couple of weeks in force after I went on an anger management course and learnt anger is healthy and very much a sign I AM HURTING INSIDE. So when I am angry as an exploder or a imploder I am using the anger to avoid my deep feelings of hurt and fear. The way am understanding it is this, fear comes when my primary needs are not being met, this gives rise to feelings of Hurt which is a sense of helplessness and powerless. Anger then comes to give me the energy to deal with it, or protect myself by the flight/fight syndrome. What I dont do is rationally say to my self this is making me angry or mad so what is it telling me, this comes from experience. This deep rooted hurt is then triggered by a recent event which can be small in its size! however my shadow is disturbed as the old energy resonates and to protect myself I take the action which works for me. In my case I walk away and turn my anger inward against me, I hurt myself to stop feeling the shame and guilt. I am not a cutter/drug addict/alcoholic/violent person I have a weapon which is as effective and destructive though as it works all the time 24/7. My weapon? ME. I am constantly living with the fear and humiliation deep down its there and runs and ruins my life. I am powerless in its grasp of me, till now I have not fought back and empowered myself. It has been too scary too all consuming, and the rewards for this? I get to loose everything and hurt everyone who comes close to me. How can anyone Love me? if you really knew me you would never Love me! for I do not Love myself enough. Yes we are capable of love if we can access that real part of ourselves. We are not complete machines though are lack of empathy and feelings at times can cause more than a minor irritation! deep down though we do have the urge for Love as am learning it is a very human need. The problem with Love and getting close is it brings up everything we have inside that is not Love. The light comes into the darkness and heals. My advice to you is to write to him and tell him how you are feeling. Tell him you are angry that he is cutting you off like this, you love him and want to sit down and communicate like adults. Tell him how you are hurting and feel so lonely and miss him so much. Tell him you want to hold him and be with him as this isolation and not returning calls feels like a punishment which you dont why. Tell him it is not acceptable to you that he behaves this way. That you understand he needs time to be alone to work things through. However in a relationship there are two people! and you would like to be respected and treated as an equal and not some pocession that can be picked up and discarded when it suits. Tell it how it is for you when you are ready to take the risk! he might not come back, and then he might. That is his choice and not yours, your choice is if you ever want him back? He has to learn to be responsible and will do that when he has people who are not going to be intimitated by him and who empower themselves with assertiveness and compassion. He is looking for a boundry give it to him as he probably did not get them when he was very young and if he did thjey were more than likely inconsistent! Love and responsibility comes through consistency. I am so grateful to you and others for giving me the opportunity to seek my answers. May you all find yours and be at peace. Rod From: Pat P. Posted: 01/31/03 Entered From: 205.188.208.139 Message: Well, Rod, my situation is that my boyfriend does not read, I suspect from a learning disabiity. Or, maybe because of P.A., I don't know. Anyway, the only way I can contact him is through his cellphone. He has no landphone. So, as you'll recall, he does not answer my phonecalls. So, he is screening the calls and if it is my number, he doesn't answer. I have no way of knowing if he later actually listens to my messages. I did take your suggestion of letting him know my feelings by leaving a cellphone message. That has been 6 days ago. Short of showing up on his doorstop, I've been unable to penetrate his silence for almost 20 days. Rod, it hurts like hell. It hurts to be away from him, it hurts that he would treat me this way, it hurts that I can't get him out of my mind. It hurts that when I have the impulse to hear his voice and call him that I know he is purposefully ignoring me. Now I'm struggling with the thought that I'm turning into a control freak because I want to influence him (control him) to contact me. Rod, I'm not sure you have any idea how much a P.A. can wound the person who loves them. I encourage you to stay on the path of getting better because I believe it is so worth it not only for you, but for those who love you. Pat From: Lynn H Date Posted: 01/31/03 Entered From: 67.217.181.186 Message: I want to tell you to keep strong. Read as much as you can about abusive behavior. I went to counseling and she told me that when someone gives you the silent treatment it is a game for them . Believe me when I tell you he knows what he doing. I'm going thru the same thing with someone that I love very much. I ended it approx 9 wks ago. I feel very sad but am getting better. He does not want to deal with anything and get real. I told him to call me if and when he feels different about things. I do not expect to hear from him. It has been our pattern everytime we have a problem, he stops talking to me. The longest time was 4 months. I'm always the one that calls him. When we do get back together, we never resolve any of the issues and they keep coming back. We'll have a few good weeks and then he does something to upset me and it starts all over again. I think deep down he knows there is something wrong with him, but he doesn't want to do anything about it. I've suggested counseling! Is response NO WAY. When you can't change someones behavior, that is when you need to let go and let go. It's not you will. Pray alot and ask God for help and to guide you. Try to be strong. He is punishing you when he does not call back. That is just so mean. He knows he's hurting you and he doesn't care enough to call and at least call you back. Stop calling him. Make him think about why you stopped calling. From: Pat P. Date Posted: 01/31/03 Entered From: 64.12.104.186 Message: Hello, Lynn - Your story sounds exactly like mine. I feel like I know exactly what you've been feeling over these past weeks. I'm so sorry. I guess you're quite right that he knows he's hurting me. Thanks for writing me. It really helps to know there's someone else out there who has experienced the same thing. Yes, he and I have broken up before and come back together and I'm always the one who calls. He never initiates calls to anyone. I think that is how he believes he stays in control. The thing is I think I'm his chance to find happiness. Kim says I'm a rescuer and I have to think she probably knows what she's talking about. Hey, I appreciate your comments. Keep your chin up too and keep strong. I'll do my best to do the same. OK, I'll try to quit calling him. Damn him anyway! From: Susan Date Posted: 01/24/03 From: 24.196.117.252 Message: Rod: I have been reading your postings and they are interesting. As I read these, however, I am reminded of my H who goes into phases of being "open and honest". These phases do not last and seem to be motivated to make me feel comfortable again so he can go back to his "normal" self. If you really are changing yourself, what is it that makes you want to change. I don't mean how your wife's confrontation motivated but what inside of YOU makes you want to change. I ask it that way because no one can change for another person. For a change in our lives to be permanent, it must be motivated from within ourselves. I'm sorry if this seems disrespectful or doubting. From: Rod Date Posted: 01/25/03 Entered From: 194.117.133.196 Message: Susan you are right to doubt me or even distrust so dont apologise. I have been on this trail before but now am going deeper than ever. What makes me want to change is probably the pain I feel inside, it got this last year to be too much. I have just about lost everything of who I thought I was. I swing very much from success to failure which seems to be how my life has gone for my 48 years. No stability apart from my wife until we seperated. So I have had enough of this and seek answers though when I started off it was to deal with my anger or lack of it. Now I try to be as honest as I can so I can see what is going on. I did not do any of this to hurt or cause my wife distress. I did not go around trying to get into debt or holding back my feelings. Ignorance got me there I hid my true self and invented a false one to get me through so as to survive. Now I am begining to be armed with knowledge which is hard to see and understand but is knowledge never-the-less. So now am empowered and have choice, so now am telling everyone I know what I am and capable of. Then I just hope you all will tell me the truth when you see it after you are empowered by information. I read so much here about the pain in families and relationships in particular. The truth hurts and is not easy but it frees both people and if that means to go seperate ways so be it. Colluding and defending people like me is the best way to allow it to remain and even grow. I think I am the worst kind as am so nice with it! I spent all my life pleasing others trying to help, the shocking truth is now I did it for ME! I am my own worst enemy there is nothing at all you could ever do to hurt me as much as I hurt myself. Loving me is no good giving me nice thoughts is no good tell me the truth about how you feel and what is happening for you and I have a chance to break free and see myself for who and what I am. Alicia posted a site about Narcissim and it has sent me spiraling into hell and back. I see so much more of myself there that makes me cringe and went into two days of shame this week with feelings of guilt that were unheard of. That comes from Anne my ex. I hate myself is the short reply and know there is something wrong with me! all narcissist traits. My primary source (my mum) died last year when I was abroad folowed by my dad which created a major crisis in my life. To then go on and look at myself for answers is apparently another typical narcissist reaction to lifes crises as this probably only time I ever get in touch with my feelings and become real. I have a beatiful daughter who has a heart condition and she reminds me every day of vulnerability and how life is so precious. I dont think I am a 'classic' narcissist but the love issue is something I struggle with. I dont want to be like this and want so much to be 'normal' and live with feelings. The truth is I dont and so have what you could call a personality disorder. I have what can best be described as 'parts' of myself that are so different. This week have seen this child like state of hell where my feelings were so raw and devastating, tears and sobbing no problem and shame. I also have seen what I best describes as my 'talker' this is the voice that will talk me into anything it has no feelings and no compulsion about anything. It is the'conman'and yet the one who is easily conned. He oftens talks me into situations I cannot handle and then out comes my nervous agitated stressed part who asks what the hell have you done I cannot handle this and goes to bed or eats to feel better. I have this part which is more rational and as feelings so I like to write here as am more relaxed then when with other people. I need other people though to give me what I 'crave' and just cannot do without which is attention and praise. Praise is a general term and can meen anything from a thank you to a how wonderful I am. The problem then is and one am now struggling with is 'are my writings seeking a source of attention?' and looking for praise. I think so which now makes me sad as although I am seeking answers to help me I do get and notice a reaction in me when I get poitive comments and how bad I feel when get criticism or possible judgement. Both of which are narcissist traits again. So back to the start and with people like me and this is for PA or narcissism or I think any behaviour which makes you feel uncomfortable. Do not trust us, do not beleive us unless you feel inside this is truth. Be honest with us about how you feel when we do something that makes you feel uncomfortable. Dont hold back and just say it but show us so we get to feel the energy that comes with it. Ranting and shouting is no good as we just walk from that! Dont try and fix us you cant. Hug us and say how you feel and want to help. Empower us to heal ourselves by looking at us with unconditional love, we never got it! Want for us what you would want for any child in pain. See our pain for what it is, feel empathy for us as we probaly cant empathise back. Dont put up or become reliant on us for anything we will only let you down anyway now or in the future. If we are worth fighting for then fight if we are not let go and find peace with yourself. You have nothing to feel sorry for nothing to be ashamed about nothing to feel guilty about. We use all them against you so we have a hold and power over you. Set yourself free by empowering yourself for then you set us free. Go in peace Rod From: Pat Date Posted: 01/18/03 Entered From: 205.188.208.139 Message: Rod - Congratulations. I believe you have great strength and insight and I applaud your efforts. I have just been dropped by my boyfriend, I believe he is passive/aggressive and I believe something happened to anger him or make him feel he was losing control and so he just abruptly stopped returning my calls. This has happened before, so I know if I wait a few weeks, he will answer me. It appears that is my only choice along with never calling him again. I wish there were a way to encourage him to start a journey like yours. From: Rod Date Posted: 01/18/03 Entered From: 62.30.112.1 Message: Thankyou Pat for your kind words. The starting is I think probably the hardest part though I am under no illusion it is going to be tough to see it through. Yes your boyfriend will keep coming back as he probably needs space to gain back his composure and control. My anger was always turned inward and at 48 to start to learn to express it safely is the greatest gift after my three lovely children. When ever I felt threatened I walk and still might while I learn to get through this. The past year has put me through a lot and it was really the loss of my girlfriend that made me aware it was never going to change until I did. She had the courage to face me with some home truths and it hurt and was rocked. I quit the relationship and am determined to learn to come more from heartspace and feelings rather than myhead. My challenge to you is to have the courage to confront him with his attitude and actions that cause you pain. Explain to him it is a pattern you both have got into and you would like to see that stop in a way acceptable for both of you. Tell him what it is about him that causes you so much pain or difficulties. Try not to attatck but instead see him as a victim who needs reassurance that he is ok its just his actions/re-actions which need to be changed. He probably does not know just now what is going on for him and no doubt sees himself as just another man struggling to survive in a world that seems to conspire against him. Deep down he has a wounded child that wants to be healed, his defenses are automatic and need to be understood by you and more importantly by him. He will try anything to avoid his inner pain and manipulate to get his needs met which are about feeling ok and reassured regulary he is a nice person and accepted. He probably wont be able to take rejection am sure so he will always walk first as it saves more pain if he has to suffer that one. I have started a new email big_grizzly_bear@hotmail.com as my communication around my anger issues. Feel free to write to me there or respond here if you prefer. Good luck in your relationship, should you decide it is worth working for. All the best Rod From: Curious Date Posted: 01/18/03 Entered From: 205.188.208.139 Message: Rod, I am curious. If you are comfortable doing so, can you please elaborate on some of the home truths that your girlfriend brought up? From: Rod Date Posted: 01/18/03 Entered From: 62.30.112.1 Message: I will give it my best shot as am sure it will help me as much as the potential to help you. I was informed by my then girlfriend (S) that I was too nice and that she felt very uncomfortable around me as she knew she could begin to enjoy and go on to use me as I was willing to do anything to please her. This was hard for me to take as all my life have wanted to keep a woman happy, my mother and wife took up 47 of my 48 yrs. S told me that she wanted more from me and not to just except everything from her, she wanted me "to come back at her" and be more real. No matter what she did I never crossed words all though she knew I was very hurt by some things she said and did. These happened when I crossed the line and tried to please her which involved me doing things as surprises. One example was I turned up at her house and cooked a meal for her after she was away for a week. My justification was I was showing her how much I cared, she did not like me entering her space without consultation. I just needed assurance I still had a relationship! as was concerned she might have met someone else. S explained to me that she felt I was always trying to fix her when she was agitated as I could not cope with her being stressed. I think it reminded me of my mum and how much effort I put into pleaseing her and making things ok so she did not get worse. In truth I did this to stop my agaitation and to get points! as then was allowed in close rather than being kept at distance. S prefered me to let her work it through in her way, while I just wanted to her hug her tight. I was very poor with money and often gave it away or did very little to hang on to it. I did work for some people for free and even though seperate from my wife I still kept her in the house we share with our daughter. I dont value money but use it to please others again. S thought my seperation from my wife needed counselling as we were not handling it very well. She suggested I had a seperation/attatchment issue around my wife and of course my mother who died last year. S said I had not really come to terms with my mums and dads death and had bottled it up inside and she found it very painful to watch me holding the pain in. At the same time my anger was leaking out as I was not dealing with it. Although I would get very resentful and grouchy about somethings I kept my relationship with S as the only nice thing in my life where I could try and escape everything else. Her suggestion was I seeked help, this I took to be a sign she was finding me unacceptable and alarm bells rang in me. I stopped the relationship and walked as could not face her likely rejection of me. I got very agitated and anxious for a week or before calmed down and I went to see her and asked we get back together. She cried and we hugged and asked to have some time. A week later she said no and I was devastated by her answer, I thought I had done enough to get back into her good books! Since then have come to the realisation I need help and want it now so much. I have been on an anger management course last weekend and now have some new friends who are also wanting to work on their anger issues. I feel my life to date has been a lie, I have never been the person who I could be, as was never in my heart space. I have just tried to do my best with the skills I had to be human. I know now it was not enough to live in my head and protect myself from my inner world. At 48 I am ready to hear that as have a chance to put it right for me and give myself an opportunity to feel free from this inner hell. Maybe then I will feel good enough and be someone who can have a more real and equal relationship where fear and anger are accepted for what they are which I now see as signs that all is not ok inside. Hope this is of some use to you, it is the first time I have written about it let alone talk about it and so thank you for the opportunity to further my self exploration. Rod From: Lynnw Date Posted: 01/20/03 Entered From: 24.229.41.84 Message: Rod; I've been following your story, and you've been very honest so far. But...women don't get mad because a man is "too nice". You said that you had underlying anger (the anger management workshop, etc.); you can't hide anger, it comes out in all parts of your life. Perhaps this anger slipped into your relationship in little covert ways? "Forgetting" things that were important to your wife? "Accidentally" doing things that hurt her? Doing things that would disrupt a relationship (drinking, running up debt, getting constantly depressed)? Not being open and honest is a way to hurt someone, also; people can sense when you are putting on an act and not showing your true feelings. Not showing the anger but 'getting even' in very subtle ways is the essence of PA. From: Rod Date Posted: 01/20/03 Entered From: 62.30.112.2 Message: Lynn I never said my girlfriend got 'mad' at my being too nice. Those are your words, my words were she felt uncomfortable around me as this is what she said to me. My hidden anger is an issue around for my wife but never came out with my girlfriend as probably we were not long enough together. I accept your point though that my anger came out in my debts and depression. Though my debts were largely due to me being taken in by people who took me for a lot of money, even my wife said I was too trusting and had no boundries as let anyone con me. As I said before I lived in my head most of my life and was never open and honest with my feelings, so am sure that has caused pain to my wife during our 30yrs. I am not proud of that but it is who I was and I certainly for one did not ever set ut to hurt anyone. The getting even in cover ways you describe, yes I have done that and also forgetting things which were important to her. I am not sure why I needed to live in my head so much but do remember my family life as being very confusing and secretive where emotions were just not the done thing. Old fashioned English white middle class, dont show feelings and if I did was humiliated for them. I am being honest in what I write though am clear it is open to debate and to be challenged as to whether my past was healthy or acceptable. If you sense I am putting on an act I invite you to be clear with me. I do not want to get into justification for my behaviour or past reasons for being like I am. Instead my anger management course has shown me that anger is about my need to protect my inner feeelings of shame and hurt. So I want to learn to not be angry but instead be more in tune with my feelings and feel this shame and hurt. I have started the process and intend to follow it through as best I can and if people like you Pat and curious take the time to respond with your points then it can help me and others to also work on our issues. I know there is the danger with all this that I to am trying to 'con' and get people to see I am 'trying' so to get others to approve and feel happy for me so I can feel good for a time. I am not in my 'heart' as much as would like, being in my head has been a life times work. I only started 17yrs ago by asking for therapy as something was not right in me. My daughter had a heart defect and over the next few years she taught me how to be more in touch with my 'heart' and feelings. 10 yrs later I bury my parents and take her back in for another heart operation and all this stuff comes flooding to the surface again. This time I want to stay with it as much as I can and this morning have been through a very powerful process supported by my ex. She told me I did not fear like I used too so that was a big positive step for me. Thank you Rod From: Lee Date Posted: 01/20/03 Entered From: 139.177.224.100 Message: I think his girlfriend did mean that she thought he was too nice. This is my list of the possible ways he could have been "too nice". He was not authentic with his feelings. He was giving all the power and control in the relationship to her. She was developing less respect for him because he was allowing her to take advantage of him. When there are issues she always feels like the bad guy, like the "b***" to get angry. From: Rod Date Posted: 01/20/03 Entered From: 62.30.112.3 Message: Thank you Lee for your seeing of me even if its not flattering. You are so right and certainly the first three and am sure you are equally right about the fourth its just she never told me she was. How easy it seems we mix our communications up and something that seems so reasonable to me can end up being so complicated and hurting the very people I try not to hurt. All thats about to change and today I let rip at a man in our street after I had aproached him and was reasonable. It might not seem a big deal to you but at 48 to be suddenly raging when have been 'nice' all my life is such a change. I know it is not healthy but I have to get more in touch with my feelings and this is begining to happen. It felt really good though as have waited 20 yrs for that particular arguement. It prompted me to start reading emotional intelligence as this book was recommended to me. It begins to explain to me why I am like I am which is another great help. All the best Rod From: Lee Date Posted: 01/21/03 Entered From: 139.177.224.100 Message: Rod, Have you seen the movie Zelig-with Woody Allen and Mia Farrow? It's a must see for someone like yourself. Zelig has a moment where he goes a little overboard with expressing his anger until he gets it right. It is very funny and I think you will relate a little bit. It's a comedy and much is exaggerated but, still the idea of making oneself a chameleon for fear of exposing one's true feelings I'm sure rings a little true for your situation. From: Rod Date Posted: 01/21/03 Entered From: 62.30.112.3 Message: Thanks Lee all suggestions gratefully received. Will check this out from video shop this week. Rod From: Curious Date Posted: 01/21/03 Entered From: 205.188.208.139 Message: Rod, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question. I truly admire your openness, honesty and willingess to look inside yourself and face such difficulties. Also, I admire the manner in which your girlfriend handled the situation. In your willingness to please her, your girlfriend saw that she could hurt you and she chose not to do that. Although on the surface it seems like a rejection, perhaps her decision was an act of love, but a different, more important love. She honored herself and you. She stepped back and there you are - alone and free. Scary and wonderful at the same time. What you have done with that freedom so far is fantastic! It may take time, my friend, but you will be fine. From: Rod Date Posted: 01/21/03 Entered From: 62.30.0.2 Message: Wow it feels like I have been seen and my situation understood curious. I respect my ex girlfriend for what she did and said to me that has helped me to start my journey. Not once was she hurtful or angry with me she even told me how much she cared as she thought I was a genuine nice person. She knew she could easily enjoy the attention she could get which would keep me trapped in my cycle. However she did not think I was long term material as had money issues and family ties which would have proved difficult to overcome. So she helped me by being open and honest about what she saw and was very upset when I asked her to reconsider as she clearly was torn. I honour her for her courage and compassion as now am different person and will be a better one by the time this is finished! Thank you for this it is helped me to reflect in a much more positive way. I am touched by the communications here with people as they have all helped me to start putting this jigsaw together. At times it is very difficult to see the pieces other times they just drop into place. May everyone find peace in thier situations and outcomes whatever they be. Sting sings it so well "if you LOVE somebody set them FREE! Free Free set them FREE!" Rod :-) Subject: how to deal with a passive-aggressive relationship? From: Jennifer Date Posted: 01/12/03 Entered From: 64.252.193.159 Message: I'm glad I found this board! So, here's the reader's digest version of my story: I have been in a relationship for three years, and my SO has never really opened up to me... occasionally, we've had "deep" conversations, but not often. We were inseparable nearly instantly and had a bond that was (until now) beyond anything we could imagine. Now, I'm having problems dealing with the passive-aggressive behavior that seems to have gotten out of control. My SO won't talk to me about anything at all, from a random thought to post-graduation plans (we're both in college, graduating at the same time, May 2003). In fact, the post-graduation plans discussion is never a discussion and is always an argument that ends up in me feeling badly for being "pushy," when, I now realise, I was simply asking: work or grad school? Now the assumption seems to be that my SO will be following me wherever I go (grad school), but I don't feel this is the right decision for me, until my SO can open up and actually TALK to me about what's going on. And I've just started attempting to bring this up recently, but it's tough to actually TALK and have a conversation. For the last three years, I've simply made mental notes and avoided conversations that were ignition for an explosion, and I avoid talking about things that will be upsetting, which makes me angry often, because that means I have to hold in what I desperately want to talk about-- and then I'm made to feel bad when I try to spend time talking to friends. Even when something good happens to me, I'm made to feel badly about it because it didn't also happen to my SO (or because my SO will never have a similar incident, etc). I know my SO has been seeing someone for some sort of help, but I don't know anything about it-- and this also bothers me. I don't expect to hear the details of therapy sessions, but I do expect to be worthy of being kept "in the loop," and at least knowing the progress of things. Very small improvements have occurred lately: when I mentioned my acceptance to a graduate school, I got a supportive/affirmative nod, but that's about it. No congradulations or anything. However, when my grandmother passed away a couple of weeks ago, I didn't even get a hug. Just an "oh, that's too bad." I am getting to the point where I know I will have to walk away from this relationship. Particularly before I move someplace far away, and am joined by someone who later will regret the decision. Anyhow, I am trying to talk to my SO about this. My SO seems oblivious-- that I will just sit back and take the attitudes and the rudeness and the discontent-- and I don't know how else to explain it. I've had an eye twitch from the stress for weeks now, and my SO insists that it's grad school stress, but I am certain that it is not. I finally said yesterday, "actually, it's because of your lack of communication. i'm quite serious when I say that your lack of communication bothers me." (I'd attempted to speak about it earlier.) My SO was very quiet for the rest of the evening, then went to bed early. However, my SO was also more physically affectionate than usual (which previously had been nothing at all). So, anyhow. My question is THIS: how do I TALK to a passive-aggressive person? Is there any way at all to strike up a dialogue that will be received and understood and retained? Is there any way at all to deal with this? I could honestly say that I love my SO with all of my heart, but now it's getting to the point of where it's hard for me to believe myself any more. And that's a clear clue that I need to rethink my relationship, but I want to know that I've tried all of my options. I don't want my lack of understanding for the condition to be the reason it didn't work out. Subject: Re:how to deal with a passive-aggressive relationship? From: Pati Date Posted: 01/15/03 Entered From: 64.107.43.222 Message: Jennifer, My PA husband said he would follow me from grad school to a job that I got...only to stay put for 2.5 years. This was MY fault, because I had clearly TOLD him he had to finish, even though he didn't want to. It's now 3.5 years later...and He wants ME to make it safe enough for him to stay and work it out with me...even though I'm the one who has filed for divorce, and HE wants me back..."cause all the hard work he put into getting ready to have a real marriage with me... From: Lynnw From: 24.229.41.84 Message: Jennifer; It doesn't matter how well you understand PA; you can learn to tolerate it better, but YOU can never cure it (only he can do that). The more you try to 'get through' to them, the more obtuse they get. If you go to grad school and he 'follows' you, make sure he acknowledges that it is HIS choice. I've been down that road, and if he decides that he doesn't like it there, you could have a whiny, miserable, depressed PA hanging off you, telling you that if you hadn't 'forced' him to move 'just to be with you' he wouldn't be so miserable. This is your big chance to get away before you get too involved (marriage, kids, etc.). From: BonnieJ To: All Date Posted: 01/13/03 Entered From: 172.191.13.72 Message: If your relationship does not work out it is not because of your lack of understanding. At this point instead of putting your time into trying to figure out how to talk to your SO, I would put that time into yourself and also suggest you talk to a counselor. I am sure you are a great person. If you got into grad school or your grandmother died wouldn't you want to be with someone who took you out to dinner to celebrate or came home with flowers when a loved one dies? Subject: PA Husband and no substantial income From: TexasRose Date Posted: 01/12/03 Entered From: 67.213.13.124 Message: My PA husband was once a successful professional. After many bad errors in judgment, and his dishonesty, he lost his license to practice. We lost our home, but fortunately was able to redeem it after two years. Now, we're on the verge of being forced out again due to his inability to obtain gainful employment. He goes from one menial job to another. NEVER earning enough to pay the basics, rent, utilities, groceries, etc. At least once a month, one or more of our utilities is being turned off. Whenever my husband goes for a professional job interview, he never hears back from them. I don't know how, but somehow he manages to sabatoge it. I have been forced to return to work in order to survive, despite the fact that I am a full-time caregiver to my elderly mother who suffers from Alzheimers. My husband constantly lies to me, has completely shut me out sexually, never any intimacy, and can hardly make eye-contact with the family. I also have reason to believe he's a chronic masturbator, and probably has been all his life. He always promises he will do better, but it never happens. We are going further and further into a black hole. I have discussed counseling for him but he always finds some excuse not to seek it. He attemps to divert the conversation to something I am doing wrong...it's never him. I am at my wits end. And, the irony of it is, I am in the counseling profession myself and can't even solve my own problems. I get up every morning, put on a happy face, go to work while all the time I'm dying inside. It's a constant struggle for me to get out of bed every morning and face a new day. Where can I turn? FROm: Georgia Posted: 02/04/03 From: 12.90.189.218 Message: Hi Texas Rose (and Jennifer), Texas Rose, you are also describing my husband who is PA and NPD (narcisstic personality disorder). I've been struggling with this myself for a long time and he and I have been in counseling for months. He did not go to counseling for me, but only for himself, because he was put on probation at his job and could not deal with being fired again. In my situation, I see little improvement and no hope. He's been fired from every job he ever held. He is out of work now. I will be filing for divorce this year. If you still want to work with your situation, it will take a lot of energy and may not give you that much payback. You have to decide. The reason you cannot handle the situation as well as you can counsel your clients is that you are in the middle of it. It is also hard for me to see what's going on, and many people have had to hit me over the head with it. It took me a lot of work to get to where I am now, realizing that, for me, it is not worth the hassle. That was hard, because I did not want a divorce. Best of luck. From: Jennifer Date Posted: 01/12/03 Entered From: 64.252.194.189 Message: I don't have any advice... if you read a newer post, you can see that I'm in my own similar position. I don't really know what to do, but I'll think warm thoughts for you. What would you tell someone if a client came to you with a similar situation? I think that you deserve much better than to be lied to and not appreciated (sexually, emotionally), and while it's hard to leave someone (I am divorced, myself), I wonder if, in the end, it would be worth it to be free of the misery brought on by someone who is supposed to love and cherish you. I wonder if he would seek counseling with you? (better, alone, but perhaps with you first), and problems could be addressed on neutral ground? Perhaps that could have an impact. I do hope things can improve for you, and soon. Subject: New to this forum From: Lori To: All Date Posted: 01/10/03 From: 64.171.26.151 Message: Hi. This is my first time posting here and I've been absolutely amazed because I think I've finally found the missing piece to my husband's bizarre behavior. he has many of the traits listed and so many things make sense to me now. Originally I had thought I was being emotionally abused (and still do, actually), but something was not quite right because he never actually acted angry or malicious to me. He just keeps saying the same hurtful, sarcastic things to me over and over, perfectly innocently as if it were an okay thing to say. He claims to "forget" that I am hurt by these comments and has elaborate explanations that suggest I'm only misconstruing what he says. If I press the issue, he steps up to the next level which goes like "I can't believe you would think I do this on purpose." He will acknowledge that I'm hurt, but his only response is "What do you want me to do? I'm not doing it on purpose." Then if I still press it, he lashes out and says I expect him to be perfect, that I think I'm perfect, that I don't appreciate him, and on and on. I've gained 50 pounds in three years. I've had to go on antidepressants and was even hospitalized at one point. I actually started to believe that he was normal and that I was reacting to him irrationally. He has no real friends to speak of. He shows a lot of contempt for people with higher education or anyone in any authority position. He himself could not complete college, and I've gotten conflicting stories as to why that was. Anything that he perceives as not being up to his special level of intelligence is "boring." If a topic or situation arises where he can't convince someone that he knows all about it, he dismisses it as trivial or stupid. I can't tell you how many times someone has begun a conversation with him and he's proceeded to spout off "facts" about it and continually contradict the other person. If the other person stands their ground, he'll simply lose interest and change the subject. Marriage counseling was a nightmare. After four months, it was decided by my husband and the counselor that I was oversensitive and that my background of divorce and an alcoholic father caused me to be this way. They tried to convince me that I just didn't understand my husband. Why I was even attracted or stayed with him is another whole story. I've known for some time that I have issues of my own to work through, but this sort of gives me a starting point to work from. Whew, it's like a light bulb just went on. Thanks for reading and I look forward to talking with all of you. Subject: wife says I'm PA...I feel stupid From: Larry Entered From: 148.78.248.10 Message: My wife says I'm PA. Says I say and do things that aee mean, cruel and insensitive. Though I don't mean them to be that way, at least I don't think I do. I thougt all was fine in our marriage but it seems since last summer she's been worried...I'd have never guessed. Thought the stresses were all from external uncontrollable sources. Job, extended family etc. How can I find out if I am indeed PA and what can I do about it? From: LAS Date Posted: 01/13/03 Entered From: 208.248.8.198 Message: Get the book, "How to live with the Passive-Aggreessive man" by Werner From: Larry Posted: 01/13/03 Entered From: 65.67.196.153 Message: I don't see how that book could help me. I'm the one who's PA...I find nothing on the posts or anywhere suggesting how to control this annoying behavior within myself. From: KIM Date Posted: 01/14/03 Entered From: Message: Larry: Hi, I am the siteowner.. This messageboard is just one part of a 33+ page site regarding passive aggressive behavior... Granted, most of it is geared toward the person dealing with the passive aggressive person, but I have a support group for p.a.s plus the link page is chalked full of links that not only help explain the behavior but some have suggestions on how to deal with it as well... The book "Living with the P.A. Man" can indeed be helpful to you because it will help you "see" some things and will help explain it as well... The goal here is to see the behavior clearly and WHY you participate in the behavior.. once you are able to do that then you can start rethinking certain behaviors and maybe develop different ways of handling it.. To just STOP is nothing more than a bandaid and although you may be able to stop some of the behaviors the thought process behind them will still be there... and they WILL eventually surface in one way or the other... My suggestion to you is to read as much as you can about the behavior, spend some time getting to understand yourself, then seeing where some of these behaviors are not helpful in your life, maybe being able to develop the ability to see others a bit more and not necessarily just yourself in the particular situations..look for a therapist that will help you develop better coping strategies, and anger management (you supress your anger and it comes out in various ways).... If you would like to look over the P.A. ONLY board email me at the above address and I will give you the password. I am also leaving the address to the sitemap below so that you can browse around the site... Good Luck to you... Link URL: http://www.pa2.homestead.com/Sitemap.html Subject: Re:New to this forum From: KIM Posted: 01/10/03 Entered From Message: Lori: your husband is a poster child for p.a. behavior no doubt.. Notice how he turns it around until it is your fault..... If I insult you, and you let me know this I am going to say "I am sorry.." now it may take me a couple of tries but if I REALLY care about you, your feelings and respect you then I am going to make a CONSCIOUS effort not to do these things... This is where the p.a. falls short.. this is where he/she continues to do THE SAME THING and then blames you.. you are too sensitive, they can't help it, they don't mean it.. and anything else they can use to emotionally abuse you in a subtle covert way... sometimes they are so good that you don't even realize that you have just been cut to the quick...but deep down you feel it..... that is their game, their best trick.... Yes, you are correct in that you will eventually have to take a look at your part as well.. I did.. I had to have a hard long look at how and why I kept getting involved (and staying) in dysfunctional relationships.. until we do that, we will keep repeating the same mistakes.. I have heard that God keeps giving us the same lessons until we learn them and I believe it... I try to reserve this board for folks initially coming across the site or first seeking information.. There are two support groups on the site.. An open area one and a closed door one which requires a password from me.. My email address is above, and the sitemap url is below... Link URL: http://www.pa2.homestead.com/Sitemap.html |
PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE HELPING HAND |
