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MESSAGEBOARD ARCHIVES

Subject: Is he PA or not? From: Michele Posted: 02/28/03 Entered From: 80.9.188.150 Hi everyone! I'm new to this message board and out of sheer luck, I stumbled upon this website that has opened up a whole new chapter! Thanks! This is my story... I've been married for 2 years. For a long time, I've had this problem with my husband not wanting to express anger (even when it's pretty obvious) and he's not huge on communication either. He believes in keeping the peace between us and his philosophy is "there's not a whole lot in life to get upset about." That philosophy is slowly but surely killing me. Each time there's a conflicting issue that we need to address, he clams up. Makes me totally frustrated and it's pointless for me to go on cos it's all one-sided! After a while, I learnt to bottle up my feelings and as a result, had lots of meltdowns. I realised that it's not doing me any good and recently, reverted back to saying what I feel, whether he wants to hear it or not. I've tried talking to him about it (and trust me, i was ever so calm!) and he's confessed that he's angry with his dad for his infidelity. Apparently, he felt really helpless when he saw his mom going through depression and attempted suicide after she found out that his dad was having an affair. So I'm not too sure if it could have stemmed from there. Reading through the traits of PAPD, I've realised that he possesses the lack of communication and the need to keep the peace. He has a problem of not being able to look me in the eye and talk to me. Instead, he watches tv. He has a memory of a worm!! I've asked him about his childhood and he tells me he doesn't remember a thing. That's really absurd unless he has amnesia. Other than that, he's not controlling or even jealous (although he's admitted to being overly jealous in the past that he's told himself he's never going to deal with that ever). I can go out with other guys and he wouldn't even bat an eye lash. So weird right? He's told me that he knows the problem lies with him and that it isn't my fault. FOr a long time, I thought it was just me. He'll be seeking therapy as soon as we get home (we're based in france right now and we don't know a therapist that speaks English) and that will be in september. I am so emotionally drained and I've slipped into bouts of depression. I'm just glad that I realise all of these and I would really like to do something about it. I'm really torn between whether he's a severe case of PA and that there's hope for recovery or should I just pack my bags and leave? We have no kids so there's really nothing to stop me. My husband's a great guy with a good heart. But sometimes, that's just not enough in a marriage. I've done that "dance" that so many of you have written about. I'm quite sick of it too. Yet, I feel like there's hope for us or am I in denial. Possibly an abuse collector? Hang in there! From: Susan Date Posted: 02/28/03 Entered From: 206.209.126.42 Michelle: This is a good site to learn about PA. There is a message board to post to regularly that you need to email Kim to get the password for. You will find there are a lot of people with the same problem. May I suggest you order the bood "Living With The Passive-Aggressive Male" by Wetzler. You will learn a lot about what PA is and isn't. While counseling might help your H, it will only work with a great deal of commitment and hard work on his part. Most PA's don't change. The issue is if we can live with it or not. Currently I am with my H but have a time frame for leaving if significant change doesn't happen. He is actually going into a 44 week program for abuser's (PA is psychological abuse) after he was assessed by an abuse counselor. But even with this, the likelihood of change is not significant. You need to ask yourself what you need in your marriage and honestly look at whether your H is able to provide that for you. I have been in a PA marriage for 31 years and if I knew then what I do now, I would never have married him let alone stayed with him. Check the archives for postings. I learned so much from them. The best thing was I learned I wasn't crazy, that other people were living with the same problem (or had gotten out). Good luck to you. From: Susan Date Posted: 02/28/03 Entered From: 24.196.117.252 The name of the book should read "Living With The Passive-Aggressive Man". Subject: Need Help From: sh Date Posted: 02/27/03 Entered From: 144.11.157.5 I've been married for approximately 5 years and have recently found out that my husband is pa. For the longest, marital counseling was the route I took, not realizing that individual counseling is needed for my husband. As of late, I've been in individual counseling and also enrolled my daughter. Typically, a normal day included speaking, discussing bills, daughter's school activities and that has been it. We have not connected over the years. I don't know him, and as I read the book "Living With The Passive-Aggressive" man, I saw myself as the rescuer. I was angry initially, but now I don't care. My entire disposition at home has changed, so much so, that I really don't want to be bothered and I really don't have anything to talk about because all of the issues will be avoided. Now I am in a mode, which I must get out of, but I've kind of become content living like this, now that I know what the problem is. Not happy. We basically live like roommates and have since 1998. I am at a stand still and can't move forward, just a stand still. Where am I in all of this? The information is very overwhelming but liberating, because now I know I am not crazy. From: kim Date Posted: 02/27/03 Entered From: 168.166.190.219 hi: I guess the question would be "where do you want to be?" Now that you have this information it opens up a lot of doors and you probably need some time to think about what they are and what you REALLY want... Kind of sounds like you have thrown in the towel.... Now that you have this information.. have you presented it to him? and if so, what was his response? what would you WANT his response to be, if you do tell him? There are ways in which to deal with him.. I learned how to difuse some of the p.a. tricks.. by learning about the behavior, by not playing into it, by walking away.. by staying strong, calm and in control when I needed to be, and by ignoring some of it when I could.. When you continually refuse to play along eventually they get the hint and realize that the behavior they are participating in no longer is getting them the rewards that they want ...(your attention, making you the bad guy.. them the victim, and more).... what ends up occurring is that you are protecting yourself from the harmful effects of p.a... but it is beneficial in that you are no longer in a constant state of turmoil, frustration and anger.. you are back in control of you... what I discovered is that a lot of times rescuers turn into managers after the p.a. no longer wants the rescuing and starts turning away from it... what once worked for YOU no longer does so in a way we try to "force" it by trying to manage the p.a. The p.a. LOVES to have someone to thwart.. so we end up playing right into their hands again, but in a different way... If I were you, I would sit down, really think about what you want.. what you are willing to accept, what is totally unacceptable and so on.. once you have done that, then you can start asking yourself the harder questions.. can you stay with the way things are, what are the consequences of staying or going.. How does this affect you and the quality of your life, and just as importantly.. your daughter.... the tension in any dysfunctional home is tremendous and severely impacts the children... I would imagine that you are at a stand still because your self-worth has taken quite a blow, that you are afraid to move forward, backwards or sideways.. The first step in regaining your self-worth is doing what you are doing and that is recognizing that no matter how you slice it, this is HIS problem.. It always has been and it always will be... Can he play it out without you.. no.. but it doesn't make him less p.a. it just makes him a p.a. looking for a new victim... Besides the book, look all around the site.. read, read, read, eventually you will grow stronger.. (participating in the support group will help you with that also...or reading the archives..) Once beaten down like that it takes some real work on YOUR part to pick yourself back up.. But you can do it... Remember that the p.a. works VERY HARD on some levels at diminishing you and your self-worth... know that they truly sense when you are back on the right track and it scares them.. It is covert bullying and what is the first thing a bully does when he/she realizes that you are no longer afraid, that you are confident in who you are and where you stand.. they back down don't they.. they realize that you are no longer easy prey.... You can get strong enough to make good solid decisions about yourself, your life and your daughter's..... Take a look at the REBUILDING page.. these are the things that I did to rebuild my life... it worked,,,, and today I am probably the strongest I have ever been in my entire life.. just take the steps.. the first baby steps and pretty soon they will be giant steps... If you are a believer, trust in God to show you the way.. I can truly say that when I opened myself up and followed the guides set before me I got there... Sometimes I can't believe the person I once was in that relationship.. I truly can't.. From: sh Posted: 02/27/03 Entered From: 144.11.157.5 Thank you so very much. I am at the very beginning of this eye opening and rebuilding journey. I've not shared any information with him mainly because of his denial to the responsibilities of his actions(typical pa attribute). However, today I feel more empowered but yet uncertain. My desire is to get out of this mess and I've made steps toward that resolve but had to stop everything for a breather. At this point, my husband response doesn't really matter right now. We've gone through this for years and the pattern is there. The times, we took marital classes and counseling, all seem so insignificant because nothing has really changed. I want to raise my daughter, serve the Lord and move on with my life. My biggest delimma is the death till you part of the marriage. Prayfully, I will move forward and get on with my life. From: Michele Posted: 02/28/03 Entered From: 80.9.188.150 I can really relate to what you are going through. The emotionally-void marriage etc. I've found myself throwing in the towel many times only to pick it up when I fall for his promises of "trying to be a better person". He's good for a while and then, it's back to hell. I've actually been praying for answers to my dilemma as to whether I should stay or go. I don't know if I should take this as an answer from God but I stumbled upon this website and read that PA's have a chance of recovery once they realise that the problem lies with them and not us. My husband has frequently pointed out (each time I have a meltdown) that it's him with the problem and not me. He's got every intention of seeking therapy (but whether or not he's going to really get down to it, is another thing). I took it as a sign that there's perhaps a glimmer of hope for us and I've decided to stay. I'm going to see how far his therapy can get us. If even that fails, I'll be leaving as I've asked myself if I can accept a life like this - I can't. Having read through the traits of PA, I'm recalling past incidents and I've realised what they were all about. He's not entirely a bad person but an empty marriage is just not acceptable to me. Wish me luck! Subject: what next? From: Relieved Date Posted: 02/24/03 ntered From: 80.225.23.165 I found this site about three days ago and since then have read just about every word on it. Don't know what made me type in pa in the first place but I was already looking up co-dependency as I thought this was the main problem with my relationship. When I first looked on here it was like I saw h being totally described for the first time. I've been married for 18 years and basically wanted to end the relationship about four years in (because H cut off emotionally to me and got into a friendship with another woman for about 18 months- non sexual) but I stayed for a few reasons (financial, two kids). My main reason was that I also started to relive the trauma of my abusive childhood thro flashbacks etc and H did absolutely nothing to support me through that healing process, preferring to ignore everything and sometimes tell me I didn't mean what I was saying, during this time he also took our kids out to meet up with this woman and I thought I was going to lose the kids which did nothing for my mental state at the time. So much of the stuff on here relates to my relationship. H is completely emotionally unavailable, 'forgets' things all the time, has avoided all responsiblity for house, kids, relationship, his own birth family relationships and I've been trying to put everything right. There are many stories I could tell about the times he has belittled me in public(totally out of character for when we are alone), told me I'm over reacting whenever I expressed any emotion about anything, shouted me down if I don't agree with him, said unacceptable stuff and then said he was 'only joking'. He also tells me what I think about things and when I say 'no I think this' he will smile and say 'but I know you don't really mean that'. He left me to renovate and redecorate our house on my own which took me six years and then told me he didn't like it because there was 'nothing of him' in it. Since that 'conversation' I've tried to include him in every decision re the house and he is back to refusing to communicate about it. Anyway, where I am now is that for the past two years I've sorted out my own stuff and am now very happy with myself. This has included getting out of his/our games which has taken lots of time and energy. Since I've done this he seems to be escalating in the pa stuff. We've supposedly been trying to make our relationship better and what I've seen is that since I'm telling him what I need that I'm getting less and less. I'm also the one doing all the talking and trying to 'fix' things. he says he wants an intimate loving relationship with me but does nothing, in fact since he's been saying that he is actually getting more physically and sexually with-holding. He also costs us a lot of money we don't need to spend when he leaves things for so long they get in bad states of repair or there are accidents (new engine in car cos he wouldn't check water/oil and the other burnt out/extensive root canal work because he wouldn't go to the dentist when he got a chipped tooth and left it over a year/ kitchen over run with mice because he wouldn't do a five min job in boarding up inside kitchen cupboards). I've recently made some close friends from the course I'm on for four years and when I told him that no one else sees me the same way he does he just laughed. I feel really stupid about this because I know I should have finished it when I first wanted to and also because I had a very similar relationship for six years when I was in my late teens/early twenties. That relationship more or less mirrored this one except that the other guy was more of a bully (he would tell me I needed to 'earn' his love). When I finally ended that relationship the guy first became physically violent (once) and then went to pieces. Anyway, recently part of the pattern of behaviour is that he says he' not happy with the relationship because he wants affection and sex, so we have long 'chats' and then I summon up another load of energy to put things right again. I think 'ok this time it will work' and I give him loads of affection, tell him I love him, send him text messages saying I love him etc etc.(which he doesn't respond to), but as soon as we have sex the next day the emotional shutters are down again and he is 'absent'. A couple of weeks later, after withholding again, he'll ask me 'Do you still not want sex' which is something I've never said in the first place. His latest escalation of game playing since I've told him I'm not getting into that cycle again is to tell me he has 'horrible fantasies about men' and if he gets an intimate relationship with me I can stop those for him (not exactly flattering is it). I have now run out of energy for this and see that cycle as dysfunctional at least and emotionally abusive at worst. Can someone else give me some kind of support, advice. I don't think I even need to ask if this behaviour is pa because it so obviously is. I also need to know if he's likely to escalate in this if I'm backing off/becoming more my own person as he really loves it when I'm in the victim position and also loves to see me crying, he spends a lot of time watching me to 'interpret' what I'm feeling which is always way off the mark. I'm also worried about how our relationship will have affected the kids as I stayed thinking they would be better off with two parents but one has been emotionally absent all the time. Sorry if this is long and rambling, it's just such a relief to find a site which gives a voice to how I've been feeling and what i've been noticing for such a long time. From: Susan  Posted: 02/24/03 Entered From: 24.196.117.252 Relieved: You certainly have come to the right place. Most of us have been through similar situations to varying degrees. Read the archives if you can and check out the links to this site. Also check out PA traits which is very helpful, too. There is also a private board to post to hear (email Kim for details). The private boards can only be gotten to by a password so you don't have to worry about your H reading it. Being able to share with others who have gone through the same kinds of things has been very helpful and healing for me. Your issue of the sexual games hit home for me. Unlike many PA's, my H is very physical; however, after we are intimate, he pulls away until the next time. I told him several weeks ago that until things change, I don't care to be that close to him. Then last weekend we went away for a weekend, something that had been planned for months ago. I chose to be intimate but within hours was regretting it. He uses PA to re-establish the distance he wants and it hurts me every time. I realized that I can't allow this again until there is change. My H is going into an abuser program (not entirely by his own will because he knows I will leave him if he doesn't. He also knows I will leave him if there isn't appropriate change, he just doesn't know what my time frame is. A PA can fake it as long as he can find a payoff in it. By not letting him know my time frame keeps him from using it in any game playing he might start. There are so good books listed on the recommended reading list. The top two are "Living With the Passive Aggressive Man" by Wetzler. You will see it referred to around here as LWPAM. Another excellent book many of us have read or are reading is "Why Does He Do That...Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" which is WDHDT for short. This is by Lundy Bancroft and is an excellent book about men who are abusive (abusive does not just refer to physical violence and intimidation). It is also psychological/emotional abuse. I'm not sure if Kim added it to the reading list yet so it may not be on there yet. After reading it, I began attending meetings at a local women's shelter which are helping me a lot. Keep checking in here if you can because you will find validation that you are NOT crazy, just that you are living in a crazy-making situation. The women here are very supportive and caring and you will know that you aren't alone. From: kim Date Posted: 02/24/03 Entered From: 168.166.190.219 HI: what is next? depends on what you do.. as you are aware, the push/pull (dysfunctional dance) is something that the p/a is extremely good at.. this is done for two reasons l. it gives THEM the control in the relationship but on a deeper level 2. they are scared to death of intimacy so when you get close they back off, then when you back off (because of being treated this way) that gives them the comfort level to come close again... this little dance can and will go on forever... if you allow it.... if you stay in the relationship you can come to learn the games so well that you chose not to participate in them.. and although he will step the p.a. tricks up a bit (because he now doesn't understand why he can no longer manipulate you) but if consistent in your refusal to participate he will lessen them a bit.. Build a life without him, ask little of him or nothing of him (unless you really have to)do not be sucked into the anger that he uses so that he can blame you for all of the problems.. once you truly accept him as he is, he can no longer surprise you, frustrate you, anger you, etc.. and you will be back in control... of YOU... If you decide to leave.. a couple of things will probably happen.. he might step up the dance a bit, to try to get you to tango with him some more.. of he can go the other direction and become pretty vicious... if it is the latter, than you need to decide what is important to you so you only fight for those things and not get sucked up in his games.. Once you are legally free of him it gets a lot better....He will use the kids to some degree (depending on how p.a. he is) but if you ignore all but which might be harmful to them, he will tire of that as well. Is it affecting your children... YES, YES, YES... two parents are not always better than one.. there is more than likely tension in your home (which they feel) and I do not know about you but when my life was so full of tension, frustration and anger, my parenting skills were very much affected, not to mention that children not only immulate what they see in their homelife/childhood they will go out and try to recreate it as well.. that is until they know better.. which sometimes takes a long time and a lot of therapy to get to.. so unless there is only mild dysfunction in the home odds are that your children are not better off with both parents.. As I said one time I would rather be healthy alone that sick in a dysfunctional relationship and I second that for my child... I will leave the sitemap below.. so you can look around the site.. I have lots of links, articles, etc.. there. Also, take a look at the various pages of archives from the groups.. that will help you also. Link URL: http://www.pa2.homestead.com/Sitemap.html Subject: TO MARKO From:  KIM Entered From: 168.166.190.219 HI MARKO: Guess you know what this is about.... but let me say this first..... there is a difference (a big difference) in acknowledging that the p.a. can cause folks to experience anger, frustration like never before and sometimes even resulting in violent behavior.. and someone who is looking to find yet another excuse (and justification) for exhibiting physical abusive behavior in their life... Yes, you were honest about your previous abuse, but what a lot of folks immediately picked up on was that in each case you found a reason and/or justification for what you did.. Now I know that you and I discussed each individual's code of ethics and so on, so you know that in each case (including the p.a.) that you have to take responsibility for using physical violence... period... just like in the other two examples that you gave.... You know not acting on impulse, or instinctually is what distinguishes us from animals and folks that are mentally unbalanced .... (good line I heard from a friend... the only difference between the sane and the insane is that the sane folks don't act out the thought or the emotion).... As I said there is a big difference between acknowledging that the p.a. can drive you to violence sometimes and continually looking for excuses for repeated abuse... I think it is time to go now... I didn't mind you staying here since you were not allowed in the private section.. but joking or not (there are people here who have been abused) I don't believe that anyone found your smacking remark funny.. It is not... abuse is NEVER FUNNY... eventually (if you are ever to move forward in life) you have to take responsibility for abusing others (no matter what you feel they did to deserve it) you are the only one in control of you.. no one else.. Subject: Thank you again Kim From: marko  Date Posted: 02/24/03 Entered From: 63.186.96.9 As our private emails described, I applaud you for your personal effort and time involved putting together and maintaining the vast website. I have harvested so much information that applies to my wife. Without any question, she is a total PA. As for me being the evil male domestic abuser, the fact is, I have never been abusive in any other relationship other than with my wife("Denial! Denial! Liar-you told us about 2 other incidents where the females assaulted you first and then you reacted violently. That definitely makes you a lifelong abuser!"). Hey, most people would say give the guy some credit for being up front and admitting his mistakes. And for the folks who did respond without personal attacks on me, I want to also thank you each. But for those who saw an easy target and made slanted inuendoes and comments, shame on you! Your own wounds and personality flaws overcame common sense and decency toward someone who shares the same thing you do - being married to a passive-aggressive. Subject: L-o-o--n-g Time From: Kathy Date Posted: 02/23/03  66.67.169.64 Hey, it has been a long time since I have been here- a year or two- much craziness since then. I had suspected my husband of having an affair ( he was, I just believed all of the denials- after all why would he lie to me, I was willing to let him go if he even thought he wanted something else). Basically, it boils down to I trusted him and over rode my guts-. It has become VERY clear that we define things very differently- He defines trust as believing every word he utters, no questions asked- I define trust as giving someone access to heart and soul- that, for me does not mean having to take his ( or anyone elses,) words or perceptions on as my own or make them my 'truth' it simply means I am ( was) willing to accept flaws, both mine and his and worked from a belief that we had a partnership that was built on encouraging and supporting the best in each other; accepting the rest. I believed he had my best interests at heart and that he had some things he needed to work out.( I guess so) Yup, I was miserable; so was he. I kept working on this, not understanding all his time, energy and focus were on 'that'. Couldn't figure out why he treated me and others here with such disdain- I guess when you are in the throes of passion that has no 24/7 responsabilities, it is easy to see those responsabilities as chains. when someone WANTS to be miserable, it is easy to set that up and step back and say ' what a miserable ---- she is- ' No matter what I did, it was 'wrong' interpreted as a slam ( including asking how his married girlfriends pregnancy was- I just didn't know she was his girlfriend, believed him when he said he wasn't having an affair, it wa sother things weighing on him and to let him figure out his own stuff- (no access to his trust, he just wanted to be believed- I did for a long time and spent a lot of time responding to his craziness, thinking it was ME- being reactive instead of active in the relationship.0 Now I know and I have all the pieces to make an informed decision ( I'm leaving- I WAS trying to work things out with him, guess that will have to be to some extent as we do have a 5 year old- just that now I know we also define 'working things out' differently. What I want and need is a place to catch the hooks- he hasn't REALLy spoken with me in a long time, just issued orders and delegated tasks but for some stupid reason, I keep thinking that maybe now that things are out and on the table, he will quit the crazy making. I find myself attempting to talk with him and the same cycle begins. I DO have to accept that he 'didn't mean to hurt me', that he felt he had to get something out of things for himself,etc, etc, etc and that may be the sum total and depth he is capable of- I guess I keep hoping that at least some of the stuff I believed of him is true) So, any of you out theree in a similair or been in a similair situation ? How do you deal with the angry silences,( I guess the continued diminshments by them of who and what you are- how do you stop caring about someone-? How do you get through the parts of still living together until you CAN leave? From: maria Date Posted: 02/26/03 Entered From: 40.0.96.2 Kathy, Seven months ago I found out that my husband was having an affair, actually everyone knew except me because I could not believe that he would do something like this to me. Yes he would come home and say thatI made him feel old and that I was not happy etc, when in fact I had two jobs a keeping the house together. His bimbo girlfriend kept him happy because she had no reponsibility what so ever. I will never again trust him and I can never forgive him, I know it sounds so harsh for those who have not gone through his terrible experience but it felt like someone had pulled out my heart. How can people say that since their partner's affair they have a better relationship? My god, are these people sane, are they in love? I didn't stop caring for him but if it wasn't for my two children, I would have been long gone, the angry silences? after the affair I felt my husband was very angry and he would not talk much but I asked him to leave with her and did not the choice was his, even now I tell him the door is open. God forgive me but I am incapable of forgiving or forgetting or trusting the person I once loved the most in my life. Subject: just want to get along From: CynthiaMc  Posted: 02/21/03  64.246.2.199 Message: My p/a and I have been separated for 4 years. We have 3 teens. it took me 3 years to realize i don't want him, anyway. But i do need to get along with him for reasons other than the kids. i haven't worked in years and have had very low self-esteem, which of course he relishes in, but am now looking for a job and have had two temporary positions. We have not divorced because of finances and insurance (for myself). He is also helping me fix my house up to sell. i want a smaller mortgage. but these things keep me tied to him, and i need to be able to get along so that i don't get depressed. We had been together since '83. I was 22. what a horrible marriage it was. i have nothing from it except the 3 great kids. but no friends. i am alone. i have been in therapy since '99, thank god it kept me alive! any suggestions or help? From: Kathy  Date Posted: 02/24/03  66.67.169.64 Cynthia, It is on the mark to tell you to go out, find other things to do- groups, classes, job- even volunteering at a place that you THINK you might like to work- it is also not that easy when you are used to building your time around anyone and everyone else's needs but yours. Become 'active' rather than 'reactive' ( My new 'battle cry'- I am divorcing and attempting not to get pulled in to the BS) It sounds like you have taken some of the beginning steps for some of the following, try doing them in very clear cut ways and see what they mean - to you- A) list exactly what you NEED to depend on him for and ask why him, not someone else- even yourself( Most small hardware stores will take the time to explain how to use equipment and Home Depot even has videos. Try taking on some of the smaller tasks to begin with- practice on old stuff or junk stuff until you get the hang of using things from wallpaper and linoleum to drills and saws. Most places will demonstrate and work with you before you rent or buy) sometimes, with a bit of imagination, you can turn some of those 'junk' pieces into 'matching craft' items as well as learning the ropes of using glues, drills saws etc. There are also continuing Ed. classes and all kinds of task oriented groups such as the wood turners that will teach people to use those things. It takes patience and a belief in yourself. But eventually, you will not have to depend on him to do those things. ( and you will meet people, some just as 'unskilled' ( or is it new at doing this?) as you B) Go and DO something- walk the malls or school halls during designated walk times- you would be surprised- after a few walks, people begin to say hello, smile and meet your eyes; Join your local fire department or auxillary- take a continuing ed class, even if it is something you think you will fail at- so what if you don't get it the first time- take it again and again- you will become familair with the terms and what they mean and how to use them. ( kind of like cooking- you adjust the recipes etc and before you know it you are 'just throwing' whatever together) C) If you are not sure of what kind of job you want, try a temp agency- make sure that the agency offers a variety of positions and try the ones you would like or have the skills for- two advantages there- if you are a good worker, you make a lot of good contacts and you begin to define what you would/would not like to do. You can also semi-set what hours you are available- don't interview AT one place- interview them, ask what kinds of jobs they offer, hours benefits etc. THEN apply at the ones that offer you what you want. The job development ( government run and free) places also will help you put together a resume, help you find jobs that are not yet advertised etc. D) When you find yourself responding to him in ways that 'diminish'you or pull you into blaming yourself for something- walk away and sit in a specific chair, give yourself 10 minutes to be angry, sad whatever; 10 minutes to ask yourself WHAT it is that you respond to in that way; 10 minutes to decide HOW you would LIKE to respond and planning your responses. The PLANNING is probably the most important and the hardest to follow up on- so write down what you would like and how YOU plan to get there- Don't fall into the trap of how you would like HIM to respond- you don't have any control there ( and he will probably escalate in his shots at you as you begin to form new responses to old behaviors so also find some kind of 'mantra' to repeat to yourself - even an old familiar prayer or poem- anything that means something to you and keeps you focused on your self-directed goal. Look at the things you tell yourself you 'can't' do- are they can'ts or won'ts? Are you perfect now? Were you ever? Do you know any perfect people? How about just people you admire- any traits they have you would like? Takes a bit of work and it takes being willing to fail at some things, sometimes lots of things - so what- that is how skills get built and how you learn to learn. Failing at something doesn't mean to stop trying, it only means you just didn't get it the first time. ( I took both algebra and chemistry 3 times- got some of the chemistry, not too much of the algebra but did pass them- it took me almost 15 years to do that and I DID begin to understand that even if I didn't understand why they worked that way, I could still use the formulas. The biggest piece, for me, was I quit asking WHY and began asking HOW. Good luck to you now that I have shared my 'infinite' wisdom with you ( one of the pokes my soon-to- be ex- takes at me) Hope something helps- something will change when you really want it to- usually you. Give yourself some breaks and quit beating yourself up- plenty of other people who will do that for you -if you let them. Also, remember, every time you ask him or someone else "WHY" you have given away some of your power- ask YOURSELF why you respond that way or why you need an answer from them and do you really expect an honest answer or an answer based on YOUR best interests- one that supports you in a positive way. My guess is that like most of us in this world, when we ask someone else why they do this or that, we really don't like the answers we get- so what, accept that answer as a valid answer- it just may be- for them- and move on. If they tell you something you don't like, so what, you know something you don't like about them and can begin to define, for yourself, what acceptable boundaries and behaviors are- what you are willing to take as well as to give. Good luck. From: Barbara Hate to sound like a broken record but I can't say strongly enough how great codependency groups are. I am in NO WAY implying that all us PA spouses or ex-spouse are/were codependent. But the relationship with the PA does have a lot of codependency earmarks to it. The groups are free and you will make friends. Search the web under codependence and see if you can find a CoDA group near you. I have kids too and live in a 2 family home downstairs from my ex for financial reasons. I find a strong door and good locks have also worked wonders. http://www.codependence.org or www.joy2ume.com From: Julia  Date Posted: 02/21/03  Entered From: 203.109.254.54 One of the best cures for a PA relationship is a new, healthy relationship. It's such a revelation to find that it doesn't have to be like that. I know it's easier said than done but go out and meet people. Join clubs, go to classes in something you'd enjoy (maybe folk dancing? crafts? sport?). You still have to see your husband but make more and more parts of your life that don't involve him. J From: Julia Date Posted: 02/21/03  Entered From: 203.109.254.54 With my ex I find it best to keep our interactions at a very simple level and not get drawn into any deeper discussions about motives or feelings. We get on best by email because it's easier to choose not to play his games - but I do have to see him because of the kids. I used to find the guilt-tripping aspects of his style to be the hardest to take. He'd imply that I didn't care about him and enjoy acting the martyr. Well, just for him, I've made his dreams come true - I don't care (not about trivia anyway), and I make that clear. I don't mean that I try to hurt him but if he tries to pull the "something you did/said hurt me" trick then my reaction is to ignore it or shrug and move on. I don't ever apologise for things I didn't do. Actually - early last year (two years after we separated) he was very seriously ill and I gave up a job opportunity to help him out. He had to be watched in hospital around the clock and I did a daily shift as a volunteer (since he was temporarily demented he was quite pleasant to be around ;-) ). But his friends no longer swallow his implications that I was callous and controlling. It was interesting at the time that although it took him three months to descend into severe short and long term memory loss, none of his friends or family spotted what was going on. Pretending to "forget" inconvienient things or "not understanding" what he didn't like was so much part of his style that they just thought he was being his eccentric self. From: crs Date Posted: 02/21/03 Entered From: 65.71.54.125 Having 3 kids is all you need. Stay strong and once you get on your own your self esteem will eventually get stronger and strong. I have been in on/off again relationship w/a PA for past year. Read don't know what to do by crs. That's my story. Once you do get into the working world you will meet new friends. You can also try a church for support. There are a lot of good loving people in this world. Don't let this one bad thing jade you forever. Move forward, close the book and look for a new and bright begining. Enjoy your children, they are truly a blessing from God. Good Luck and God Bless you! From: crs  Date Posted: 02/21/03 Entered From: 65.71.54.125 Having 3 kids is all you need. Stay strong and once you get on your own your self esteem will eventually get stronger and strong. I have been in on/off again relationship w/a PA for past year. Read don't know what to do by crs. That's my story. Once you do get into the working world you will meet new friends. You can also try a church for support. There are a lot of good loving people in this world. Don't let this one bad thing jade you forever. Move forward, close the book and look for a new and bright begining. Enjoy your children, they are truly a blessing from God. Good Luck and God Bless you! Subject: 12yr old..told he might be P.A. From: Rose Date Posted: 02/19/03  66.58.170.72 My husband and I have been married for almost 6 years had have had custody of his 12 year old son for 6 1/2 years. The last few years my stepson has gone from a happy go lucky kid to a sad,depressed preteen. I know that it sounds like hormones to some, but I think there is something else going on. He had been homeschooled by my husband ( not what I wanted to do) for 4 years, for the most part, things went okay, but it seems that the battles to do the schoolwork became more frequent. My stepson became more stubborn over time, the more insistant we became, the more stubborn. This last year, my husband no longer felt he could continue, so we sent our son back to public school. Unfortunley the transition was not as smooth as we all hoped. He came home sullen, we would get one word answers from him, then he would have break downs. When we looked back over the last 2 years, we noticed that there had been breakdowns, and they were getting more frequent. He worries about things he has no contol over, he thinks the other kids hate him, he says they think he is fat..ugly..stupid..etc..We have never said to him that he was fat,or ugly or stupid.. He says the teachers don't seem to care, but when we talk to the teachers, they say he is quiet and never askes questions, doesn't use time well..etc... He broke down and said he wanted to die, so we took him to therapy. We went for 6 weeks or so and the adults did all the talking. He would pretent to sleep on the couch or stare off into space or pretend not to be listening. The counselor told us that he was really listening, just pretending. The first few visits in therapy, we all stayed in the room, then the next few we would all stay in the room for about 15 minutes then my husband and I would leave and the therapist and stepson would stay and talk. After a few weeks, the therapist said he was doing all the talking and our son was basically not participating. He felt our son was P.A. and that left us at a standstill..My husband and I decided to stop therapy and things got better for a while, but now things are getting worse again. Our son is failing in school, he can do the work but chooses not to, when we force him to do the schoolwork, it takes hours and I mean hours, tonight it took them 5 1/2 hours to do 15 math problems! My husband is beginning to lose his temper and I am starting to worry. I am at my wits end and keep telling my husband to take deep breaths but he is starting to get annoyed with me. I try to help, but think I make things worse. My husband keeps talking and talking to our son, but it is like talking to a brick wall..he tells me.." I don't know when to stop talking sometimes" that sometimes make things worse..our son says "Oh, I forgot" when you ask him to something even when you just asked him...it gets real frustrating...I know I am rambling now and probably have you all confused..but like I said, I am at my wits end..please advise me of some places to go for info..the info I have gotten is quite vague or geared toward adults..Thanks for any and all help! Subject: Is he being bullied at school? From: JMT  Posted: 02/23/03 Entered From: 67.8.178.249 I'm curious as to whether or not he is being bullied at school. Perhaps he's getting the messages that he's fat and ugly from his peers. I had experience being the target of bullies as a kid, and I can honestly say that the teachers were clueless (or chose to be) and I was almost too embarrassed and scared to "tell on the kids" and tell my parents since I didn't want to increase the harassment at school. Being a "new kid" at school-- especially at age 12-- can be rough if you're not "cool enough". His peers might be relentlessly bullying him. Perhaps he's ignoring his homework because he wants to drop out/get kicked out and be homeschooled again. I recall one girl in high school who was homeschooled for most of her childhood. She had an extremely difficult time trying to fit in. People relentlessly harassed her until she finally quit and went back to homeschooling. Just my 0.02. If he hasn't admitted to it, it wouldn't surprise me-- admitting that one is being bullied is like admitting weakness or failure to defend oneself (be a "man"). Also, maybe the schoolwork seems overwhelming, or the teachers seem cold and distant. It must be really disconcerting to go from the more protective environment of the home to an impersonal institution like public school. Subject: Re:12yr old..told he might be P.A. From: Laura Date Posted: 02/22/03 Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Rose, I worked with behaviorally disturbed adolescents and their families for several years. The first thing that jumps out at me from your post is that your stepson is depressed. Saying that he wants to die, feeling like all the other kids hate him, and that he is fat, ugly and stupid are not normal behaviors for a boy this age, and would make me VERY concerned. Depression can cause serious difficulties with concentration and MIGHT explain his difficulties with completing his schoolwork as well as lack of motivation. I would make an appt with a child/adolescent psychiatrist to have him evaluated for medication. The same doctor could also evaluate him for any other coexisting problems like ADHD or an anxiety disorder, and treat them if necessary. It is not unusual for kids this age to clam up in therapy, it takes a skilled adolescent therapist to be able to get them to open up. Trying to get them to talk is often like pulling teeth, ESPECIALLY with boys (girls are so much easier in this regard), and even when they do talk, their insight is poor and they have a very hard time identifying their feelings. Don't give up on him, more than anything he needs to know that his parents care about him. I am always hesitant to diagnose a child as PA, because it is normal for children to exhibit PA tendencies at some times. And if you ask your friends with "normal" kids, I think they will tell you that they get the "I forgot" routine, too. My kids do it when they don't want to do something or have something they would rather be doing. However, you may set consequences for forgetting. For example, ask twice, if not done, he loses a privilege. You may find that will decrease his forgetfulness. But first get him tested by a psychiatrist. He may or may not be PA/ADD/ADHD, but from what you wrote, the depression should not be ignored. He is crying out for help. Subject: Sounds like ADHD From: marko Date Posted: 02/21/03 Entered From: 68.69.93.170 Find a book titled Driven To Distraction by Hallowell. In it he describes the most common symptoms of ADHD- Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. But a word of caution because you say the problems he is exhibiting have started recently in the last few years, around age 10? If thats true, ADHD might be ruled out since it starts at birth and is usually fully developed by age 4 or 5. In otherwords, you probably would not have noticed a sudden change in the boys behavior at 10 or 12 years of age. Subject: Re:Sounds like ADHD From: Barbara ate Posted: 02/21/03 From: 66.153.54.51 One of my oldest and dearest friends only found out he was ADHD when his daughter was diagnosed about 7 years ago and he was in his mid-30s. He is in no way P.A. My P.A. ex is in no way ADHD. Though I can see the cross-over. Another great book is also RAISING A SPIRITED CHILD. It helps understand these types of children. One of my daughters is going to a behavioral clinic soon for a rule out of ADHD. My nephew has Asperger's Syndrome but a few years of medication and intensive therapy have done wonders for him. Explore all your options. Subject: Re:12yr old..told he might be P.A. From: Lynnw Posted: 02/21/03 Entered From: 198.69.196.17 My nine year old son is having similar school problems, although he's not as resistant to our help (yet). There is a good book called Right Brained Children in a Left Brained World. It's about children who are very bright, but have traits that some call ADD. The point is that these children think and learn differently, and become frustrated to the point of being like your stepson when they are forced into a learning system they can't grasp. The things your stepson is doing are certainly passive aggressive traits, and that is what people who don't have much power (like children) do in response to being controlled in a way they don't like. It may just be a reaction, not a set personality, but NOW is the time to deal with it. They can't openly rebel, so they shut down and refuse to participate. (Remember, Ghandi's passive resistance is a form of PA, too.) Maybe you should look into the right-brained theory (there's lots on the web), or maybe back down and let your stepson decide for himself to suceed or fail. Be prepared for some failures, but once he knows that it's entirely up to him, he might decide to succeed. Subject: LynnW From: BonnieJ Date Posted: 02/21/03 Entered From: 172.139.95.200 If he is truly ADD/ADHD it may not be his choice if he wants to succeed/fail. It is considered a learning disability and people who have this have low voltage in their frontal cortex which is why medication helps. People can have this all their life and not be aware of it until there is a problem. (School work gets harder and so do relationships with peers.) Some people are anti-medication but it can cause positive results very quickly. Also people that have this are very bright and creative. Also do better with hands on learning. Maybe if he takes an art class, or some kind of extracurricular activity that is creative and hands on mabye he will be good at it and it will help raise his self esteem. Sorry for babbling it is just frustrating to see children having difficulty and being blamed when it is not their fault. Maybe a new theory but I wonder how many PA's are really ADD?? Subject: Re:12yr old..told he might be P.A. From: Lynn Posted: 02/19/03 Entered From: 67.217.181.12 I'm so sorry that you are going thru this. It must be terrible for you and your son. I would check on personality disorders. There is a great site that refers to several personality disorders. "I'm told there are 10 different personality disorders" Good Luck Don't give up, your son needs you very much. Possibly try another therpist that works with children. Subject: Re:12yr old..told he might be P.A. From: BonnieJ Date Posted: 02/19/03 Entered From: 172.134.36.162 When I was 13 I said what is the point of living life and my Mom dragged me to therapy. I threatened to run away, would not talk to the therapist and would sit there circling in the chair. She would play games with me and drink tea so I guess this is how she got me to open up. Sorry for rambling but my point is that these are also signs of ADD. Boredom, forgetting things, spacing out, not using time well, difficulty in school etc. (I am not a doctor and this is just my opinion and personal experience.) You can do a search on the internet and find a checklist and see if this sounds like your stepson. Also the therapist might just not have been a match for your stepson. Therapy is supposed to be confidential and a place where you feel safe. If my parents went in with me I would not open up either because I would think that the therapist would tell my parents everything. Hope this helps. Subject: Help! From: AnnG Posted: 02/17/03 From: 152.163.194.193 I have been married for 10 years now to someone who I think is very controlling. I have four children two dogs and total disfunction. My husband wants a picture perfect house. When he comes home he expects it to be cleaned and nothing out of place. If I do clean he looks for something that I didn't do. I'm at the point where I hate him!!. On the other hand when he wants to talk to me I fight him, I've told him for years that if my good isn't good enough do it yourself. We fight constantly, usually about the house. My house isn't dirty by no means. But he looks for the fingerprints on the walls etc. I'm very depressed and god knows I want out but can't go. (house, 4kids and lots of bills) I'm going to be 38 next week and have never been so confused in my life. I take out a lot of my aggression on my children, usually when he is home or I know is about to arrive. I don't want the screaming and yelling, usually on my part! help! If this isn't the place to be please direct me as to where to go. Also I'm always defensive with him. I always seem to be defending myself, why? My family sees it, they say all we do if fight, my children are fresh and don't listen half the time! I hate my situation! From: Barbara Date Posted: 02/18/03  From: 66.153.54.24 Let me just add to what Kim said - YES you all need therapy. And my PA H used to do the same things - until I saw it for what it is ABUSE. So if you can't get him to go - Go yourself!!! Now!!! Call a woman's shelter or clinic if you can't afford it and see if you can find someone on a sliding scale. Also CoDependents Anonymous www.codependents.org have free groups just about everywhere (check their page) so if nothing else GO FOR YOURSELF. My PA H got very mad at me when I got disabled because I could no longer keep the perfect house and be the perfect wife. When the twins came the house looks like a sty most of the time and I do my best to keep it down to a dull roar. Sometimes he cleans it and tells me how he does a much better job than me. So I just LET him. I am divorcing him anyway. My mom who was PA and had Manic Depression was a clean freak. Sge kept the house picture perfect then NEVER allowed us to have friends or guests over. That kind of control is a way of controlling pain and others. It is torture. Please - at LEAST go to therapy FOR YOU!! From: KIM Date Posted: 02/18/03 Entered From: 168.166.190.219 Message: YOU all need to get to therapy ASAP!!! for yoursake and especially for your childrens... Your husband has some issues that need to be resolved....... It sounds bad there and I feel sorry for you (I can remember what it feels like to feel stuck)... However, if it gets so bad there is truly no situation that you cannot get out of it it is intolerable.. It may mean sacrifice (but in my mind.. peace of mind is worth more than material possessions) but it can be done... I would sit down with him when you are calm, (Maybe even show him your post .. except for the part of not being able to leave) and tell him that you want to resolve these matters for all of your sakes but feel it is going to take intervention from an outside person... His need for that kind of cleanliness may be a disorder of some sort or it may be the fact that he just wants to control you, keep you busy, and that could be for various reasons.... but whatever is going on between you, your children should not have to bear the burden.. I know that we all lash out on occasion at whoever is near, but to do it continuously will surely indicate that your children WILL need therapy some day and may even come to not like the two of you very much... Do what you can to get the two of you to therapy... Subject: Neutralizing PA behavior From: marko  Date Posted: 02/16/03 : 67.193.119.155 Notice how I did not say "changing" PA behavior? Thats because I understand that you cannot change anyone else except yourself. So I am asking other members on this board to list some of their own techniques that work toward neutralizing their PA partners behavior. Or at the very least, ways that help eliminate your own personal involvement into their PA gamesmanship. Subject: P.S. From: BonnieJ  Date Posted: 02/16/03 Entered From: 172.145.65.166 I think that to truly neutralize a PA's behavior I think you take on PA traits yourself. (If I am wrong or you agree would greatly appreciate feedback.) What truly concerns me is that if you act like this for a while that is who you start to become and I am unsure of how to get back to how I used to be?? Subject: Re:Neutralizing PA behavior From: BonnieJ Date Posted: 02/16/03 Entered From: 172.145.65.166 Being disattached. Do not feel anything, do not react, do not expect anything. Subject: Re:Neutralizing PA behavior From: Barbara  Date Posted: 02/16/03 Entered From: 66.153.54.55 Have to agree with you Bonnie. I tried mirroring my PA H and started to become JUST like him. Of course when I pointed out his PA-ness he just said "I am this way because of YOU!!" Yeah right. Anyway... Detachment and no expectations is the only way to neutralize PA behavior's effect on you. Subject: Barbara From: BonnieJ Date Posted: 02/16/0 Entered From: 172.136.222.51 How did you go back to who you are? I used to be an idealist and a romantic and my behavior and outlook has changed so much. Does it just take time? I do not like him very much right now and definitely do not want to be like him. Subject: Re:Barbara From: Maria Date Posted: 02/17/03 Entered From: 40.0.96.2 I am sitting her reading your messages, is it really worth staying with someone like this? How many sacrifices would you make to stay with someone and in the end loose your true personality? Subject: Re:Barbara From: Julia Date Posted: 02/18/03 Entered From: 203.109.254.54 I'm inclined to think it's not worth it. I tried disengaging from the games but my ex wasn't above using my friends to force me into playing things by his rules. If you can't have friends and don't engage with your partner then it doesn't matter if you lose your personality - you won't need one anyway. Subject: Re:Barbara From: sje  Date Posted: 02/17/03 Entered From: 63.143.239.154 I do not believe there is a way to neutralize PA behavior without losing your own personality. It takes too much energy to remain on guard for self-protection. My PA has gotten some better, but only because he could see that I was caring substantally less and less. He needs an audience and I'm not providing it. Of course, my own needs are not fulfilled either. Its only a matter of time until we part. Subject: Re:Barbara From: Barbara  Posted: 02/17/03   From: 66.153.54.19 Getting back to who I am is a very very long painful process. Kim's link to Robert Burney's site on Codependence http://www.joy2ume.com - has helped but it isn't easy. I am currently the long hurtful process of DIVORCING my PA H. That is the ultimate in neutralization. Subject: Yup, divorce would be the ultimate neutralizer! From: marko  Date Posted: 02/17/03  Entered From: 67.193.119.46 However, in my situation, which is heading to a divorce from a PA spouse, involves a young child. I will be in contact with the PA for approximately the rest of my life. In other words, I am required to communicate on a regular basis with my STBX based on shared custody and visitation matters. I am not willing to sacrifice the relationship with my child just to eliminate the X's PA problems. So I need TACTICS and DEFENSE MODES that will help eliminate conflict in our future. Likewise, I fear for my childs future being raised primarily by the PA parent and how it will effect her. Subject: Re:Yup, divorce would be the ultimate neutralizer! From: Julia  Date Posted: 02/18/03 Entered From: 203.109.254.54 This is a difficult situation. I also have a couple of kids so I'm still dealing with my ex (we're sharing the kids). It helps to have a bit of moral support. It can be particularly difficult for anyone outside the relationship to understand what the problem is. If they don't see the PA behavious it's hard to take it seriously. Luckily my ex was so over-the-top PA that even some of HIS friends congratulated me for leaving him. J Subject: Divorce & Custody From: Barbara Date Posted: 02/17/03 Entered From: 66.153.54.114 My divorce involves 2 small children. A strong decree, with SPECIFICALLY laid out parameters for child custody is what is I am planning. I am sharing a 2 family home with my PA H and a nice big door with a lock as well. Visitation may have to be supervised. Many divorce lawyers and mediators will give you a free consult about this. Believe me, once you aren't with them 24-7 it helps a lot. Additionally, YOU have to get involved with a codependency recovery program to help build yourself up to deal with them. Lack of reaction and just staring at mine is working very well until the decree is signed. My children are going to therapy when they are on my watch, too. That's for SURE. Don't give the PA too much power. Even in your mind. That's neutralizing all on its own. Image URL: http://www.joy2meu.com Subject: PA roommmate? From: Jodi Date Posted: 02/15/03 Entered From: 206.149.148.165 I believ my roommate is PA. She is constantly making rude comments about very small things. For example, she comments on how much I do laundry (I did 2 loads this week!) and also things about what I eat. She also does this to my other roommate. She has a negative comment for EVERYTHING. I am not quite sure how to handle this. I definately need to confront her because it is driving me crazy. I want to say something back to her next time she comments on something. How do you confront people like this? I was thinking of saying "Is there a problem that you want to talk about? Why do you always have a negative comment?" I would like to some advise on how to handle this. I don't want to keep feeling uncomfortable in my house. Thanks in advance! Subject: Re:PA roommmate? From: KIM Date Posted: 02/17/03 Entered From: 65.239.144.6 HI: I think that when people "hint, hint" you need to bring it right out in the open then and there.. Of course it will then be denied... but then your follow up should be almost what you said here.. that you want the atmosphere in your home to be one of relaxation and peace and if she has concerns she should be honest, then the three of you can hash them out..... I think that is the only way to keep the peace.. maybe some rules need to be established regarding who and how often laundry should be done.. who buys food, how often.. Hopefully, rules will lessen her need to make negative comments....if not, then you all need to confront HER and tell her that if she is not happy, and there is no way to please her, that maybe she would be happier elsewhere.... Subject: Don't know what to do... From: Confused Posted: 02/11/03 Entered From: 206.154.117.4 Hi everyone. I've been reading posts on this site for a couple of days now, and have decided to post since I still am pretty confused about what I should do. I think my new boyfriend is PA. The reason this concerns me is that he was my best friend for 3 years prior to our recent decision to become romantically involved. He's basically exhibited a lot of PA behavior while we were just friends, but I have seen it in a completely different light recently because of the new dynamic in the relationship. I believe I should call things off with him, but I wanted to ask the people out here how they did it. I'm guessing that he's going to be all the more interested in me when I try to call it off. Does anyone have advice on having a friendship with a PA? We just started dating 4 weeks ago, and ever since I decided that I would go ahead with the romantic relationship, everything changed. He was SO in love with me while I was not responsive, and undecided. But, then I said that I would be up for a romantic relationship,and since then, I've seen him a total of 3 times (which is MUCH less than I would have when we were just friends), and he NEVER calls me or emails me anymore...at all. So, we don't talk anymore in between the times we see each other, and everything we've done as a couple has been in large groups...it seems to me like he just doesn't want to be alone with me, that he's withdrawing from the relationship already. This is definitely not what I want - if he's distant and withrawn 4 weeks into the relationship, I can't imagine what would happen in 4 years! Any thoughts/advice? Subject: Re:Don't know what to do... From: Stacy  Date Posted: 02/12/03  Entered From: 24.162.4.116 I've posted about my relationship with a friend that became a disaster when it changed into a dating relationship. We were friends for over 10 years and I never observed any of the behaviors I experienced over the last year when we dated. Last minute broken dates, no-shows at restaurants, kindness extended just enough so I thought I was being demanding within the new parameters of the relationship; he was "never angry" at me although would say things in jest that hurt. All so different than the close and nurturing friendship I though had existed. Even trying to be friends again has been a problem. On Monday, he told me to call him for lunch today; when I did he didn't call back until after lunch; acted like we never discussed getting together (puzzled); that I was "very persistant" by calling; and then saying of course he values our friendship and it was just a busy day for him. And he misses me but would see me soon. RUN!!! Subject: Re:Don't know what to do... From: Confused  Date Posted: 02/13/03  Entered From: 206.154.117.4 Thanks for your input, Stacy! I know I have to get out of the situation - it's just hard, as you know. I really value the friendship that we had. Do you think your friendship with your ex has changed, or do you think you're just more in tune with his behavior since you've dated? The situation you described about meeting for lunch sounds familiar to me too! I was supposed to meet my boyfriend the other day, but when I got there, he wasn't there yet (even though he told me he'd be there 2 hours before me, and he was going to wait for me to arrive). So, I called to see where he was, and he freaked out - told me I was harrassing him with phone calls, and that he was being smothered! When I first met him, I was a little overweight, and had severe acne - and because I was not a teenager anymore, this made me very self-concious! Since then, I have undergone treatment for acne, and it has disappeared, and with that, weight loss, and I look and feel better than I ever have. I credited a lot of my success in accepting myself to my friendship with him, because no matter what I looked like, he was never judgemental...until we started dating. Now, he thinks I need to dress differently (sexier) and lose more weight...just as a point of reference, several of my friends have designated me their "personal shopper" because I'm so good at capturing their style, and coordinating outfits. And, I look great, I do not need to lose weight, in fact, there might be 5-lbs to spare, but that's IT - I don't know what he's seeing, but it's not the same thing as everyone else... So, these expecation are seriously unrealistic! (Not to mention uncalled for) I think what he's looking for is a girlfriend that will "wow" everyone he knows...he wants OTHER people to tell him that his girlfriend is HOT... I am finding it hard to cut ties with him also because I'm very close to his family. He was my best friend all this time, and because my family lives far away, I spend holidays with his family, and they all have told me that I'm like a family member! For example, his sister got married last summer - had 8 bridesmaids...I was in the wedding party - the only non-relative to be asked...because I was like family to them. All this was before we ever decided to start dating. Anyway, now I'm rambling, but I am finding it harder to lose the friendship than the relationship that just started. I know that the behavior he's exhibiting now is wrong and I can't stand for it. I have to prepare myself for the whole situation, the hurtful things that I'm sure will thrown my way when I tell him that we are not going to be together, and that's MY decision, and it's final. Give me strength! Subject: Re:Don't know what to do... From: crs  Date Posted: 02/21/03  Entered From: 65.71.54.125 After reading these stories I know for sure I have fallen in love with a passive aggresive man. We dated for 6 months and stayed together many nights but were both not ready for a "commitment". Then we decided to consumate our relationship by going on a romantic trip together, but we never did because he got scared and never showed up. I became so angry with him for playing games with my mind...I ended it. He said he wanted to concentrate on his career. Several weeks passed and I missed talking to him and vice versa. He called and ask if we could go to dinner and talk. Then he did not call. We eventually had lunch and decided to remain friends. I still run into him everywhere I go, sometimes I am with a date and it drives him crazy but I know he has slept around, he was honest w/me and told me when I asked. Over the Hollidays he would show up everywhere and he said all the right things and the next thing I knew I was at his house and we were finally intimate together. It was so special for both of us. We talked about how we had wanted each other for over a year and it was finally the right time for us to be together. He called the next day and told me he was leaving for a business trip and he would call when he returned. He never called again. I have called him a few times upset and he says he sorry he hurt me, he did not want anything to change between us, he cares and that we are still close friends. My heart is so hurt from his behaviour. I know he cares deeply for me but he "cant" allow himself to get close. He is 39 and never married. I am 39, divorced and have a 13 yr. old. He's crazy about my son. I wish I knew how to fall - out - of - love - with this man. Any suggestions? Subject: Re:Don't know what to do... From: Confused Date Posted: 02/24/03 Entered From: 206.154.117.4 Message: I tried to get out of the relationship this past weekend. I'm not confused anymore, but I don't know what to do, still! It was so much harder than I could have imagined - exhausting, really. I think it's because I'm trying to get out, but at the same time I don't want to hurt him!!! I don't understand why, since this doesn't seem to be an issue for him, when my feelings are at stake!!! Last week, we had gone out for Valentine's day, and I was treated VERY poorly. As I mentioned before, this is a NEW romantic relationship. Instead of having a romantic evening together, he made it a "party", where we met 3 other couples, and were going back to someone's house for drinks afterwards. Here's how the evening played out. First, he was running late, and asked if I could get a ride with another couple, since they live so close to my house. I told him that was OK, because I didn't want to have to wait for him and be late. So, when he arrives, he doesn't even acknowledge my presence!! He didn't look in my direction, even though I was sitting right next to him! So, a few minutes later, he physically got up out of his chair, and went to give his friends' wives a hug and kiss hello...came right back to sit next to me, without even looking my way... Then, when we got to the house where we were meeting these people after dinner, he didn't even pay attention to the fact that I was wearing heels and had to walk up the long, icy driveway to the icy stairs to get into the house...he just walked on ahead of me, and closed the door behind him! I didn't see him again until this past Saturday night, and I told him that I didn't like the way I was treated on Valentine's Day, and that maybe we shouldn't see each other. I have read SO MUCH stuff on this site, and I KNOW that everything he says and does is TOTAL PA behavior, but I find myself listening to what he has to say, and I don't get too upset about it until later, when I realize what just happened. I said before that I'm really close with his family, and I'm trying to tread lightly because of that - his dad's PA, and his mom has no self esteem and is completely emotionally beaten down (this has become much clearer to me since I started dating the son, and have imagined myself in her shoes). Anyway, he (obviously) blamed my hurt feelings on ME. Because he didn't realize what he'd been doing, and it was MY FAULT for not pointing it out! I know you guys all know what I'm talking about, and that you've all been through it, but I get so mad at myself for even listening to this BS. I never admitted to being wrong, and didn't say much except that I wanted to talk about it on my time, and that's why it had to wait. (I didn't want to cause a scene at the restaurant) He told me that he wasn't ALWAYS attracted to me, that sometimes he feels it very strongly and other times he doesn't at all. He has tried to "fix" me in the past. He decided that I needed to dress sexier, and maybe I should lose some weight. I wore a skirt the next time we went out, and that problem went away. (?) Now, he says that I'm not emotionally strong enough, because the V-Day events bothered me, AND I have to "change my voice". He thinks I raise my voice at him...but, I have a naturally loud voice, and I'm finding myself being defensive a lot, so that's interpreted as "yelling". Anyway, on Saturday, he got very defensive when I said we shouldn't see each other, and started to tower over me, and yell at me...I got SO intimidated, I agreed that we could keep dating, as long as it was understood that it wasn't an exclusive relationship, and that I was going to be dating other people. He said this was a good idea, but now that I got myself part-way out, I wonder how I'm going to get the rest of the way out. I can't keep going on like this, I deserve better than him! Subject: Re:Don't know what to do... From: Lee  Date Posted: 02/18/03 Entered From: 139.177.224.100 Expectations, Expectations, Expections, Committment Phobia, Committment Phobia When these guys are friends there is no committment and no to low expectations. Once you are romantically involved the expectations change and they feel more pressured to live up to certain standards and "demands". These men who are great friends are not necessarily great lovers. More is at stake and they often run scared. Subject: Re:Don't know what to do... From: Stacy  02/13/03  Entered From: 24.162.4.116 I have asked myself 100 times whether he was always like this or just after we got involved. Our friend ship was less involved than yours-no family connections. Before we got involved I don't recall ever having a problem getting together with him-and he made more calls to me to set up lunch or dinner than I did to him. I recall only a few cancellations and two no-shows with legit excuses, or so I thought at the time. But as far as the comments, the pressure he feels from me, none of that existed prior to the involvement. There are a lot of people who knew we were friends but for professional reasons, hardly anyone knew we dated. But recently a colleague who did not know we were involved said that she thought he admired me and had me on a pedastal. I must have fallen off somehow. Subject: Re:Don't know what to do... From: sje  Date Posted: 02/12/03 From: 63.143.239.154 This early into a relationship?......RUN! Subject: Can this problem come and go? From: AnneHW  Posted: 02/11/03  From: 63.193.168.181 Right now my Dh has been on his best behavior for 2 weeks, while I am still recovering from the last big argument. I felt like I was arguing with myself, he wasn't even involved for the longest time. He actually said that we hadn;t had a fight in 15 years! Well not one that he noticed. To others he can look so caring and attentive, I try very hard to make sure I notice the good things but my heart isn;t in it. There are still a couple really big incidences that make me wonder what I am still doing here and yet all he can say is `that wasn;t what I meant'. One complication is that I have had depression for over 20 years. It hasn;t been constant but it has always been there and I have had treatment for about 2 years now. I think that makes me a super easy target for being at fault. And it seems to be much worse whenever I am dependant for any reason. When we were totally broke and I was pregnant he called almost every night to say he would be home in 15 minutes and it was hours. The first time I hurt my back badly he left and went to a movie. One of the big issues for me is that he can say he is doing things that need to be done, but he does them so incredibly slowly or ineptly that he may as well have not done it. Of course then I am the controlling one because I want dishes done before I need to cook or ATM reciepts before I balance the checkbook. I have been totally powerless over that one. He and his mother even do that together. When I was on bed-rest they cleaned the kitchen and it took 3 hours! I sound horrible when I talk about this, why can;t I just accept him more. I am concerned about counseling because I am afraid it will become about my depression and apparently controlling behavior instead of about him dealing with life. I change my mind 12 times a day about whether I want to leave or stay. Thanks Anne Subject: Re:Can this problem come and go? From: Julia  Date Posted: 02/12/03  Entered From: 203.97.2.243 Heh heh! When I asked my ex to help in the kitchen because I was in a rush (visitors coming) he got a sponge and caaarefully washed all the door handles. Well, "it just needed to be done". Meanwhile I peeled the potatoes and he got all hurt and huffy and told the guests that I obviously didn't think he'd be good enough at it. I find it funny now, but at the time it made me want to bang my head against the wall. I sympathise with your feeling that you sound horrible. I don't usually complain about my ex's behaviour because there was rarely any huge, obvious problem. Just an endless list of subtle manipulative tricks and reciting a few examples always made me sound and feel petty. "What? you left your husband because he washed the door handles??!" As to whether it can come and go - well it sure seemed to for us but then my ex was convinced that he was a great partner (who "never felt angry") so it suited him to be nice if things were going his way. J Subject: Re:Can this problem come and go? From: Anne  Date Posted: 02/14/03  Entered From: 63.193.168.181 I am feeling so much more free in just knowing about this! My Dh is pretty aware that something is seriously up and has been on his best behavior last night. He was so sweet and I was still mad that it took so much to get him to notice a problem, it exhausted me. Sometimes I run through the list of `why did I stay after,..' events. The first big one I remember was when my oldest was a baby and he was supposed to pick me up at an outdoor mall at a specific time. He wasn;t there, I had no car, hardly any money to make a phone call, and I did not have the number where he was (the university info line was down over the weekends). I can;t remember how long I waited, 1 hour or 2, I just remember being distruaght for days and assuming he must feel terrible but he never did anything to `fix' it. That is what is draining the life away for us, we all screw up but he never has to make anything better after. The most recent serious and horrible fight was about me having time to talk to him in the morning. I was getting ready to go to work early (new at back to work) and getting the kids together and the animals cared for etc. He insisted that he he wasn;t asking me for anything but I should just talk to him. All day he was angry and after talking late at night he figured that sometimes we let each other down but it was pretty much 50-50. When I left him to sleep on the couch he realized something was seriously wrong. He said something like `oh you really didn;t have time', so for years when I have worked so hard that I am exhausted he has still always figured that I was jsut holding back on him, even though he can leave me physically incapable and that isn't a problem. It emotionally crushes me some days to realize how little he sees and understands. I feel a bit whiny, I guess I am just trying to see if this is all PA stuff and familiar to others. Anne Subject: Re: Can this problem come and go? From: Barbara  Date Posted: 02/17/03   From: 152.163.201.209 Anne - all too familiar. If you read the links on this site you will see. He isn't on his best behavior... he is laying low to suck you back in so he can PA you all over. Mine has done this to me for 20 years. The laundry list is long. He seems like such a nice, intelligent, supportive, hard working, long suffering guy. Right now I just don't care what anyone thinks. I remember for years I swore it was me, went back to him, etc. Now that I read Wetzler's book, understand my own codependency problems (PA spouses are usually codependent) his back and forth (come to me/ go away) behavior patterns are sooooo obvious. The problem doesn't come and go - he's just being a good boy until he knows he's got you again. Subject: Re: Can this problem come and go? From: Anne  Date Posted: 02/17/03   From: 63.193.168.181 Thanks, I need that reality check again. I really think that unless you have been close to a person like this you do not understand. I have to get used to others not getting it. It scares me that at the times I was most vulnerable it was the worst, we can't be strong all the time. I don;t want to sound too optimistic but we had some progress over the weekend. The discussions started like usual but I refused to cooperate. I started by telling him that this counseling we are going to is not to fix me and I am not splitting this 50/50. After long talking and telling him about some of the PA characteristics we made some progress, he actually admitted to me that he manipulated the situation over the dishwasher to get what he wanted and he knew that I would not be okay with it. The reason I think this has been possible is that he had serious problems in college related to PA. He was diagnosed with a learning disability and told to take his degree and be grateful. Now he would like to get his masters and is scared that the problems will come back. So he is doing this for himself which works best. I just need to hang tough, it is hard to watch him do the things I quit like laundry and ironing. I don;t think he realizes he is doing a pitiful job on purpose. I am still trying to get into the other groups, maybe my e-mail is having problems? Anne Subject: The silence is deafening! From: marko  Date Posted: 02/10/03  Entered From: 68.69.93.170 Currently in an unwanted divorce from my wife of 9 years (15 year relationship). I had been told by one counselor, based on my description, that she was PA. I never knew what that term meant until researching it. Anyway, she has filed based on physical and verbal abuse by me. Question to ask is that a "result" of living with a PA spouse? She is very emotionally detached, gaurded with her feelings, submissive, hates to argue or fight for herself, never follows-up on disagreements, never intiates sex, and seems so cold and silent many times. Her take is that I am a male batterer or domestic abuser, a mysogynist. After researching that idea, it came to be revealed that I dont fit the patterns typically associated with that profile, at least not enough to be labeled as such. But wanting to find out more about whats wrong in the marriage, I am exploring all avenues. Are physical violence and verbal insults a common response (defense reaction?) toward someone who exhibits PA behaviour towards you? Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: Ann  Posted: 02/21/03  Entered From: 81.104.108.224 In answer to your original question and based on my own experience of being with a PA, 'physical violence and verbal insults' are NOT a common response to PA behaviour. In fact, IMO your wife is showing more characteristics of being with a PA than you are and appears to be 'walking on eggshells'. Perhaps you should stop turning the tables and blaming your wife for 'being PA' to excuse YOUR violent behaviour. Finding a 'reason' and then putting the blame on your wife is a typical batterers excuse! If you are physically violent towards her there is NO EXCUSE. The reactions she is having are typical to HER being abused by YOU, NOT the other way round. Maybe you would find more answers on a Domestic Violence site rather than this one. Subject: Thanks for the response Ann From: marko  Posted: 02/21/03  Entered From: 68.69.93.170 But how could you even remotely imply to me that I am somehow "turning the tables". Maybe if I denied the abuse, and then came looking for some sympathy from this website, your statements might be inline. But unfortunately, you have not grasped the concept of what I am asking. Likewise, if you read some of the other responses to my post, you will see that others here have also responded to a PA's behavior with anger and abuse. Additionally, the website owner Kim has cited a published book by Wetzler that says it is most certainly a common response. And I myself have located another book which states that violence is a definite possibility when reacting to PA. Also, I have not one, but two therapists who both concurred that my wife is a PA. So I am sorry if you take it personally that I abused my wife. You are entitled to your opinion and I thank you for the response to my post. However, you need to realize that my wife is most positively a PA. She has been one her entire adult life. I DID NOT CAUSE HER TO BE A PA! And if you were educated in any way on the topic of domestic violence, you would know that it does not result in making someone else a passive-aggressive. Now here is an interesting thought. Suppose it was my wife who posted on this website and said: "My husband abused me and I have responded to it by being pasive-aggressive. Has anybody else had this happen to them?" What would your response to her be? Would you be sympathetic to her and say its okay to act PA because being abusive is a much worse thing than being a PA? Or would your response be negative towards her and say violence is not an excuse for acting PA, and you are trying to turn the tables on your own bad behavior by blaming your husband. Think about that. Subject: Re:Thanks for the response Ann From: Ann Date Posted: 02/22/03 Entered From: 62.252.128.5 Actually, I don't take it personally that you abused your wife, I would imagine that's your job. In relation to your 'interesting thought', I don't think it's okay to be either PA or abusive. Furthermore, I am educated in a way regarding domestic violence and I DIDN'T say that it made someone else passive aggressive. What I said was that your wife was displaying signs of HER being abused, not the other way round. You say that one of the counsellors said that she was 'passive' but only took your word for the aggressive bit.. Incidentally on reading the posts, I notice that you didn't reply to Bonnie J's question about previous violence. When all is said and done, I don't know the ins and outs of your relationship. If you truly wish to be a non-violent non-controlling person within your relationships, then I truly wish you well in your journey. Subject: Yeah, yeah yeah.... From: marko Date Posted: 02/23/03 Entered From: 67.193.119.145 But like a couple of other woman who replied to my original posting, you failed at both understanding my question, and at answering it. I was asking very simply and very much to the point, does PA behavior ever result in abusive responses. I didnt hide, seek excuses, or otherwise candy-coat the fact that I was abusive. So to you and anyone else (including the folks who voted to deny me a password on the private message board) who think I'm a bad bad boy, remember this: You taught me a lesson about being open and honest in the annonymous internet. Now, once again, I will state that violence is a common reaction to PA behavior. This is currently supported (but not condoned!) by various people on this website, 2 different authors of books regarding PA, and my further study of the subject including my personal observations, and 2 profesional psychotherapists opinions. I never thought I would end up having to "defend" myself for admitted behavior while seeking info about PA. So to you and anybody else that wants to play amateur psychiatrist, please stop responding to my posting. It has been almost 2 weeks since I first posted, and I have long since gotten my answer. Now go away before I smack you one... Subject: Re:Yeah, yeah yeah.... From: Linda T Date Posted: 02/23/03 Entered From: 12.238.10.54 Marko, I understood your original question quite clearly. I do hold a license to do therapy. I also have worked in the Family Violence unit of the DA's office. My good friend and former classmate is a Director of a Domestic Violence center and agrees, you are an abuser in denial. The problem I am having is that the comments in your posts are OH! so familiar to me. Have heard your sorry excuses a million times, many of your statements are almost verbatim of comments I have heard from other abusers. You may very well have an ex that is PA but the bottom line here is the fact that when you are frustrated, not getting what you want from another individual, stressed etc.. you possess the potential to react in a violent manner. When you admit to your physical abuse behavior you seem to think that absolves it. Almost like you deserve an award for "being so honest". This clearly indicates that you are not showing any true remorse but are in hard core denial. You attempt to control the readers by stating "Yes, I did it so I'm sorry, don't mention it again". If you want to find answers to your problems, you have to search within yourself as to why you react in a violent manner. That has to be your PRIORITY, not if your ex is PA. If you worked on your abusive behavior/reaction as hard as you are trying to find someone to blame, you would be well on your way to recovery. As difficult as it may be for you to accept, you are an abuser. The, "it just happened once" "I am sorry" excuses (although you admitted to other violent episodes too) do not make a bit of difference. Again! you hold the potential for physcially violent outbursts. Doesn't matter if two books, twenty therapists or a hundred people say reaction to a PA can be violence, (the book never said "COMMON" reaction, just a possiblity for people without a history of violent reactions) the only issue here is your abusive behavior. AND, I don't feel a bit guilty that your not going to be "honest" or post anymore. My apologies to Kim for taking so much space but I felt a need to write this. Subject: Re:LindaT and BonnieJ From: Laura Date Posted: 02/24/03 Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Linda, As Bonnie rightly pointed out, mylast response to Marko was far too emotional. I should have waited instead of responding impulsively. But I was not responding in the capacity of a professional, but as a person, I do fall into that category as well. I have had a very emotional week. Thank you for your very professional response, and for eloquently stating what I would have liked to have said instead. I think that those of us who have worked with abuse perpetrators (and because I mostly worked with children and adolescents, I am not sexist, I worked with my share of female abusers, although the men often abused their wives as well, in my experience rarely the other way around, but it does happen) have an easier time seeing through the smoke and mirrors. I do find it disconcerting that he has been able to manipulate so many on this board. In my opinion, telling him that physical abuse is a common reaction, or even not an unusual reaction,to PA behavior serves only to enable him in further abusive behavior. Thank you for your support, even if it wasn't intended as support, I took it as such, and for your insight. You obviously know what you are talking about, and based on my own experience, I couldn't agree more with everything you wrote. And Bonnie, yes I am in counseling, you see, I am working on forgiving myself and absolving myself of all blame I have placed on myself for allowing the abuse (primarily emotional) for so long, and subjecting my children to the same. The focus of my work right now is on changing myself and MY behaviors, as opposed to staying stuck in what he what he was doing to me, been there, done that, still go there sometimes, but not productive. If you want to choose to enable Marko's abusive behavior, that is your choice. It is my choice not to support his denial. Subject: Laura From: BonnieJ Date Posted: 02/24/03 Entered From: 172.142.96.55 Thank you very much for your post. I really appreciated what you had to say. I apologize for my comment regarding you being in counseling. I was rude and out of line. I also was not trying to enable his abusive behavior. It took a lot of guts for him to say what he did on a messageboard composed mainly of woman. I did not judge what he said in his post I simply thought that he was trying to get help and that a lot of people were pouncing on him. It is a new week so I hope this week is better for you. Subject: Re:Yeah, yeah yeah.... From: Ann Date Posted: 02/23/03 Entered From: 62.252.128.5 Yes, it has been two weeks since you first posted and AT LAST we see something of your true colours. I am not afraid of you Marko. I think you are a creep. Subject: Re:Yeah, yeah yeah.... From: Laura Date Posted: 02/23/03 Entered From: 12.222.211.155 I wanted to add one more thing, at risk of making your day. I was so upset after reading your post, and responding to it, that I took a shower and was literally in tears. Your remark reopened up some old wounds for me, which is precisely why I did not want you on the closed boards. This is supposed to be a place where we can heal from abuse, not be exposed to further abuse. Your wife may well have been PA, there is no law that prohibits an abusive man from being married to a PA, but unlike you, none of the spouses here are inherently abusive. And although this site is predominantly made up of women, not one man has ever said he has hit his wife or girlfriend. Nor have the women done anything to their spouses that have caused their spouses to be even remotely scared of them. Physical abuse is all about control and intimidation. Personally, I think a PA-physically abusive combination would be a marriage from hell, but stranger things have happened. Call me judgemental if you like, guilty as charged. I have issues with abusive men, and until you work through your abuse issues, and unless it is your primary focus and you stop looking for reasons outside of yourself you never will, I will have real problems with you. Subject: Re:Yeah, yeah yeah.... From: BonnieJ Date Posted: 02/23/03 Entered From: 172.156.140.54 You were obviously still upset when you posted because most of your comments were sexist and/or lacked common sense. It is not worth the time to dispute every comment you made, on top of the fact that your posts were downright emotionally abusive. The main issue right now is that everyone who comes here seeks help/knowledge and no one should be denied that because you have not dealt with your past issues. Regarding you personally I seriously hope that your comment about having professional experience is not true. I also sincerely say that you really need counseling. Subject: Re:Yeah, yeah yeah.... From: Laura Date Posted: 02/23/03 Entered   From: 12.222.211.155 Marko wrote >> Now go away before I smack you one... I know that I promised both Kim and myself that I would ignore you after my last post but...... Marko, I am not sure how seriously this remark was intended, but considering it came from somebody who has a history of being abusive in not one, but three different relationships (forget the excuses), I found your comment highly offensive. This isn't something YOU have the luxury of even joking about, and this board is a particularly inappropriate place to do it. As many posts as I have read here, I have NEVER read a post where a member threatened another member, even in jest, and I am not sure that yours was in jest. In one line, you have undermined the safe haven that this board represents. Your true colors have been now exposed. You blew it Marko, BIG TIME! Subject: Re:Thanks for the response Ann From: Barbara  Date Posted: 02/21/03  From: 66.153.54.51 First Marko, I think you are being brave enough to admit what you did and know it was wrong and want to change so you never do it again. I admit that about a year ago, when I was very sick and overtired - my P.A. H got under my skin with his nonsense so badly one day I punched him. I don't know why. A couple days later I thru something at him and he threw something back. It has never happened again. I spoke to my therapist about it. My rage & anger and she agreed that many times, in long relationships with P.A. the spouse can explode. Also, I was severely abused by a boyfriend years ago and sometimes abuses begets abuse. It has been a number of years now and I am finally divorcing my P.A. H and things like that have never happened again. Yes, abuse is never a good response but I think, Marko, coming forward and looking for help the way you are is a step in the right direction. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: Hopefull  Date Posted: 02/17/03  Entered From: 69.3.87.198 My God, You just described the last 15 years of my life. I have no idea of what to say. I am floored. Subject: Hang in there, Hopeful !!! From: marko  Date Posted: 02/17/03  Entered From: 67.193.119.46 I will pray for your future and mine together. This website has much to offer so read as much as possible. It has truly helped enlighten me. Best of everything to you. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: Lee Date Posted: 02/14/03  Entered From: 139.177.224.100 Physical and Verbal abuse, battering, has nothing to do with a PA spouse. Being angry with your spouse is not the same as being abusive. Abusive behaviors are tools that abusers use to control or punish their spouse for not doing or being the way the spouse wants them to be. Typical abusive behaviors are ordering, cutting them off, walking away when the spouse is expressing themselves, ignoring the spouse, constant criticism, not wanting them to spend time with others, jealous of others, frequently telling spouse what is wrong with them, yelling when something isn't done right, interupting, being stingy with money, telling spouse they are too sensitive when they have complaints about being hurt. Spouses who have been battered or abused often withdraw to avoid more abuse. This may seem like PA when it is in fact a response to abuse. People who abuse their spouse usually think it is the spouse that causes their anger. Not true. It is the abusers perceptions of what they will and will not accept in their spouse that causes their anger. I would highly recommend you check out Dr. Irene's verbal abuse site before deciding what is up. Subject: "What is up" is already decided From: marko  Date Posted: 02/14/03 Entered From: 68.69.93.170 I feel my earlier postings were clearly written. But the fact is my wife has already been labeled PA by not one, but 2 counselors. Both of these counselors were well aware of the domestic abuse situation as well. They were not duped or otherwise fooled by my smooth, charming character as suggested by other posters here. I approached them for marriage counseling and abuse counseling, they in turn revealed to me what PA was. I am very open and introspective about my problems. I am now hoping to achieve the same for my wife. Lee, it was compelling to me that in your list of "typical abusive behaviors", you described many of my wifes actions in very close detail! "cutting them off,walking away when the spouse is expressing themselves,ignoring the spouse,not wanting them to spend time with others,interupting,telling spouse they are too sensitive when they have complaints." (I removed the items that were not descriptive of her) Lastly, I appreciate your response, but need to let you know I am well educated on the topic of DV. The pressure building/release/make-up stages. The cycles of abuse. The reasons behind it. What the common- versus-severe forms of it are, etc, etc. I am now in the information gathering stage for PA. I am starting to realize some obvious actions my wife did to brace herself from her inability to be assertive. The dilema I am encountering here on this website is that half the responders have openly offered that they were abusive in some ways toward their PA spouse, while the other half of responders are saying to me it was my abuse that caused the "PA-like" behavior in my wife. Subject: Re:"What is up" is already decided From: Lynnw  Posted: 02/14/03  Entered From: 198.69.195.245 Marko; Did your wife actually see either of the counselors? It seems from what you have written that she was 'diagnosed' strictly from things you said about her. So far you haven't said anything here about her behavior that sounds specifically PA...there are many reasons a person can withdraw or be afraid to be assertive. Does she do blatently PA things? Subject: Re:"What is up" is already decided From: marko  Date Posted: 02/15/03  68.69.93.170 Yes, both counselors had sessions with my wife. The first one, the lady who initially told me she was PA, was able to get her to come in for a session. Initially my wife refused to go. But this woman was persistant and hung in there. Thank God for that. But getting my wife to go was actually a PA experience in itself. Let me explain. The counselor asked me if she could telephone my wife and attempt to get her to come in. My wife refused. Later, the counselor was able to get my wife to agree to come in alone, w/o me present. The wife agreed to that. Than on the day of the appointment, my wife called her 5 minutes after the scheduled appointment time and told her she couldnt get a babysitter for our daughter! Why didnt she ask me to babysit? And certainly she would have known much earlier that nobody else was able to babysit. See, she didnt ever plan on going, and was total PA in how she handled it. But this counselor was no dummy. She got my wife to reschedule. The content of that session, which ended up going into "double overtime" (2hrs), convinced the counselor of my wifes PA. Eventually I stopped going to this person as my wife continued to reject me and no action on my part could get her to reconcile. Then, about 13 months after walking out on me, she showed up at the house and started crying saying she was still in love with me and wanted to try and work things out. We agreed that marriage counseling would be needed and started seeing another counselor. She made it through all of 5 sessions and decided that she wanted to proceed with the divorce! Not only was I shocked by her instant change of heart, but so was the counselor! He said that he saw absolutely no indication in my wifes actions or words that would have signaled this to him. He said everything appeared to be going fine and moving in a positive and forward direction. In fact, he later confided in me that he focused initially on me and my issues rather than my wifes. This he did because he knew of her reluctance to enter counseling and didnt want to place too much pressure on her. His final diagnosis of her was that she is completely gaurded in her feelings and emotionaly detached. She presented as withdrawn and not able to voice her opinions. He agreed that she was passive, but he hadnt spent enough time with her to say passive/aggressive, only the things I told him about. After recently starting to research PA and from info on this website and from other folks descriptions, I now have begun to see how widespread her PA actually is. My knowledge of the terms used to describe certain PA behaviors is rapidly expanding. For example, "witholding" is positively her main trait. Then the other day a person described to me the term "gaslighting". When I read her description of that trait, I immediately knew my wife uses that technique many, many times. As I find out more on PA, I'm sure more things will come to light. Hopefully I will become as well versed on the subject as some of the long time posters at this website. If only I had a better understanding of this a long time ago??? Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: CJ  Date Posted: 02/11/03  Entered From: 170.141.224.32 Marko- I don't know if this answers your question or not but I was married to a PA for 22 years. He wanted out one day because I wanted more from him. It was ALWAYS about him and his needs. I look back now and ask myself questions, put pieces of the puzzles together, blame, take the blame, etc. Some scenarios are clearer than others but one of the things that I have realized is that I am basically a quiet, aim to please, loving person. I was happy to do whatever it took for him to have his life/career and me make all the changes and take care of 2 children and work.(Air Force wife) It wore on me though and I remember now how I yelled, slammed, dictated, and tried to control my enviorment. He frustrated me with his PA games(manipulation, grand standing, gaslighting). He confused me and disappointed me. He told me one thing but did another. Being quiet I kept it all inside and it came out by using control. Now I look back and see that I don't even know who I was back then! I do know that even though I didn't know that he was PA at the time I was a completely different person because of how I allowed him to behave. Subject: Gaslighting From: marko  Date Posted: 02/11/03  Entered From: 68.69.93.170 Can you elaborate on the term gaslighting for me CJ, I'm not familiar with it. Thanks for responding with those heartfelt words. It was easy to "feel" what you meant. Subject: Re:Gaslighting From: CJ   Date Posted: 02/11/03  Entered From: 170.141.224.32 Gladly. Its when someone you trust and love convinces you that you didn't hear, see, or feel something that has actually happened to you. EX.If I were in a room and the power were to go on and off causing the light to flicker and I would ask, "What was that" the other person's response would be "what was what??" Do that often enough to someone that trusts you in all sorts of crafty ways will make them doubt themselves. FYI- Kim has explained in the past that there is a membership to the messageboard that is not for newcomer's you can use with a password that she will provide for you by e-mailing her, this way we don't bogg this page with correspondances.Good Luck to you. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: Laura   Date Posted: 02/11/03   Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Sorry, Marko, but if you are looking for justification for YOUR verbal and physical abuse from me, you aren't going to get it. Victims are far more likely to leave abusers, than the other way around. Why? Because she was miserable with the relationship, not you. I will bet you thought everything was just fine, and can't believe that she left you. I would bet that if she were to post here, she would say she had been unhappy for a very long time. Every trait that you used to describe your wife sound like natural responses to abuse. Why should she be open with her feelings, stand up for herself, try to resolve conflicts, or feel warm and caring enough to intitiate sex when she knows she may be subjected to physical or verbal abuse? It is NEVER acceptable for a man to assault a woman. Even if a woman slaps a man, it may sting a bit, but the man doesn't feel scared or intimidated, unlike the other way around. Physical abuse by a man is the ultimate control tactic, and that is what abuse is all about. Sounds though like you have found a counselor though that you can deceive and manipulate. I wish your wife the best of luck, may she never find herself in another abusive relationship. Subject: The silence is deafening! From: Marko Date Posted: 02/11/03 Entered From: 68.69.93.170 Laura, thank you sincerly for responding. I have completely accepted my faults in the marriage. The counselor who explained the PA behaviors of my wife to me is very competent. There was no fooling her! I also joined anger management groups and domestic abuse programs. It was while taking part of those groups that I became aware of the cycles and "tactics" abusers employ to achieve their means (financial control, restrictive contact, domineering, extreme jealousy, and insulting to name just a few). There were tests and checklists to find out what "degree" of abuser you are. It was within these meetings I became aware that while I had been both physical and verbally abusive, I did not fit the profile of the male batterer. But the most striking fact I observed in these groups was the total denial of abuse by the other men and blaming it on the wife and how it was her fault they abused her. Many of them were facing jail time "because of my wifes actions". These men completely fit the profile. Now, do not get me wrong. If you ever hit your spouse, it is a crime, and you are guilty of abuse. However, does someone who drinks alcohol and gets drunk earn the title alcoholic? Regardless, my wife approached me in an attempt to reconcile a year after leaving. We entered into marriage counseling. This was something that she ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to do at any time prior to or after seperating with me. While initially working with this new counselor, my wife did not mention abuse as her primary reason for leaving. She said it was her, that she hadnt feel as happy as a wife should be in a marriage, she was a different person than when we married and had changed, she was sorry for leaving and that I am a good person,etc. So we beagn working toward our future together. Then, within 5 sessions, she immediately did a complete turnaround and stopped going, and is proceeding with the divorce. Hmmmm, said the counselor. I did not see anything in her behavior or words that signaled she was even slightly considering changing her mind. He described her as completely gaurded in her emotions and emotionally detached. He mentioned many instances during our counseling that would be aligned with PA behavior, thereby confirming what the first counselor revealed to me about passive-agressive people. He stated she displayed personality traits that were rooted in her upbringing. Was he also fooled by me? Or was he really fooled by my wife. That is the answer I seek by posting here. After finding out about PA, and seeing how it functions in a relationship, I am looking to see if that is a reason for our problems. I am NOT looking to find an excuse for my behavior. Only the understanding of what PA is and how it took part in the marriage. Lastly, Laura, your response seems to say its okay for the woman to slap a man, but not the other way around because men arent scared or intimidated by it. And it doesnt sound like your talking about a woman acting in self-defense either. Physical abuse is not acceptable in any situation. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: Laura Date Posted: 02/11/03 Entered From: 12.222.211.155 Marko, No, I do not think it is okay for a woman to slap a man either, I think that physical violence is a poor choice regardless, and have never done so myself. However, I do think it is a very different situation, and like comparing apples to oranges. It is the rare woman who can do significant damage to her spouse with her hands or fists, or put him in the position of being scared for his safety. However, it is very easy for a man to physically intimidate his wife and use it to control her. Assuming that your wife is PA, maybe she is, maybe not, you are still abusive, and that is YOUR issue, not HERS. You say how the other men in the abuse groups blamed their wives for their abusive behavior. Absolutely. But I see you looking for excuses for your abusive behavior as well. She was PA, therefore she drove me to it. Sorry, sounds like you are in as much denial as you saw in the other men in your group. And as far as degrees of abusiveness? I would never rely on the abuser as a reliable historian as far as what kind or degree of abuse was occurring. They will ALWAYS downplay it. And the unfortunate fact is that too many counselors don't recognize abuse when they see it, or understand the far-reaching effects of abuse, thus revictimizing the woman. Couples therapy can be devastating for an abuse victim, because couselors are trained to look at relationship dynamics and how each partner plays their part in the conflict. Well, abuse victims haven't done anything to cause the abuse, and blaming them is just enabling the abuser, who can be incredibly charming, manipulative, and deceptive. So, the counselor becomes an unwitting accomplice. No wonder she bailed on couples therapy. Can you tell I feel strongly about this? I happen to have both personal and professional experience in this area. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: Linda T Date Posted: 02/11/03 Entered From: 12.238.10.54 Marko, find another counselor who will help you get the assistance you so desperately need. You are in major denial. I don't believe Laura said anything about it being OK for a female to stike a male. She was using it as an example and made it clear it was not a justified act for anyone. Interesting how you turned that around. Subject: Another counselor ??? From: Marko Date Posted: 02/11/03 Entered From: 68.69.93.170 Maybe I should just keep shopping around until I find a counselor who doesnt believe that Passive-Agressive behavior exists! ;0) The fact is, when I study the subject of PA, my wife acts as described both on this website and elswhere. And not one, but 2 professional counselors have affirmed. That is why I come to this forum. Not to bare my personal problems and get a hackjob diagnoses by someone telling me I'm in denial and twisting words around. I want to hear what people, both male and female, see as behavior that THEIR spouses exhibited and YOUR reactions. Specifically, is anger a common response. Again, I respect any opinions other people hold, but please dont victimize my wife at the expense of seeking knowledge. If you do not react to a PA with anger, say so. If you do, than again, say so. Just dont sit behind a computer screen and pass judgement on MY way of reacting to it (no matter how flawed it may have been). Subject: Hi Marko From: BonnieJ  Date Posted: 02/11/03  Entered From: 172.147.100.30 Yes I think it is normal to react to a PA with anger. I have been reading the board trying to understand if I am the pa or my ex was the pa. After reading some of the posts to your question he is the pa. I responded in an abusive way to him. I am not proud of the way I acted and have to take responsibility for my actions. You have taken the anger management courses and know your previous behavior. I am assuming that you have never behaved like this with anyone before and just posted because you want to understand why? Subject: Re:Hi Marko From: marko  Date Posted: 02/12/03  Entered From: 67.193.119.70 Bonnie, I almost wish I never had mentioned anything about my anger on this board. But that would not have been honest. And it may actually be helping others here to post their experiences knowing they're not alone. I appreciate hearing how PA has affected people. Thanks for responding. Subject: Re:Hi Marko From: Lee Date Posted: 02/18/03  From: 139.177.224.100 Being angry and hitting someone are not the same thing. When you hit someone you are trying to get them to do something, it's more than just reacting, it's to get them to stop doing x or start doing y. One of the reasons men hit women is when they feel they are not getting enough attention and or respect. They are not getting their needs met so the physical abuse is form of punishment and a way of saying "pay attention to ME". A PA can be very frustrating in the way them seem to not pay attention to you, to thwart your interests. PA's are often getting back at you for controlling behaviors that they can't confront out in the open. PA is stealth. They withdraw instead of fight. The PA's motto is don't get mad get even. There are two kinds of anger in abuse situations - there is reactive anger - anger that one feels when one is truly abused, ignored, hurt. Then there is controlling anger when the spouse is not behaving the way we think they should and we want them to treat us in a manner we think they should. When someone is using controlling anger tactic they usually don't take the other person's feelings into account and do and say whatever to get the spouse to behave in a way that they want them to. If you want to have an arguement and your spouse says I can't talk about this with you when you yell at me and you yell louder and tell her you can't leave this room until this is settled that is controling anger. You are telling her how she has to behave because YOU want to continue the discussion. What you may be experincing with her most of the time is reactive anger, it becomes controling anger though, when it becomes physical abuse and intimidation. It sounds like your wife is not emotionally available to you regardless of the reasons and that seems to be the key issue right now. The problem is no matter how hard you try you cannot MAKE her be emotionally available or straight with you or able to share enough to understand what seems to be her strange behavior. PA's rarely own their problem and very rarely change. If you want a fully participating partner who is fair in her dealings you might need to consider divorce. These individuals are very very difficult to live with even for the most laid back folks. Subject: Thanks Lee! From: Marko  Date Posted: 02/18/03  Entered From: 68.69.93.170 I do admit to be controlling in that I am not comfortable with letting a problem linger on and never be discussed. The wife wont discuss or deal with the problems when they are encountered, when they are brought up, or later when they have faded. She just dont want to talk about it, period! And boy, is that icy cold silence a real treat! Its a great ego booster, too ,when the PA makes you feel like your the only one who has a problem with the problem. You know the feeling, when they turn it around on you and make you feel (fill in the blank). Subject: Re:Thanks Lee! From: Lee  Date Posted: 02/18/03  Entered From: 139.177.224.100 Marko, I responded on the last post down regarding not wanting to settle for not settling. I understand perfecty your frustration with wanting to get things settled, but as I said in my post, you can't force it and the thing is, the more you push, the more a PA will refuse to participate. That's how they "get you" They refused to be controlled by your interests - so they find ways to thwart you. It's all a really stupid childish game, but it makes them feel like they have some power in the relationship because these people feel powerless. They can't deal with feelings and issues honestly. THEY JUST CAN'T AND THEY WON'T. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: Susan  Date Posted: 02/10/03  Entered From: 206.209.126.42 Marko: I don't know what the typical reaction is to a female PA, but I ranted and raved for years at my PA husband trying to get him to do what he was "supposed" to be doing. I even slapped him on a couple of occasions when he exhibited his most infuriorating and hurtful PA behavior (he would smile at me when I finally would cry). He went through an "anger group" about 15-20 years ago and told the counselor I was the one with the anger problem, not him. In a way he was right but I wasn't normally such an angry person. There is a book called "Living with the passive-aggressive man" which is quoted from around here regularly (the issues of PA woman are a bit different but I am sure there are many parallels, too). Anyway, the author makes the statement that the PA can drive the most sane person to an exagerated reaction. I simply yelled all the time. Being a man, the issue of yelling and perhaps threatening and physical force are viewed much differently than for a woman doing the same things to a man. Because men generally are physically stronger and have dominated woman and society for a long time, those behaviors can be seen as intimidation and control. That is another paradox of the PA. They are really the ones in control, but WE are the ones who are angry and trying to get things under control. The PA likes to be a victim and uses our anger at their passive-aggression against us. They will set up the situation so they fail and then can be doubly victimized when the spouse gets upset. My H went to the grocery store to pick up a can of peaches for me and came back three hours later with a can pears (you can't use pears in peach-upsidedown cake). I was bouncing off the walls waiting for him to return from a 10 minute trips and when he walked in with the wrong thing telling me it was cheaper, I really went off the wall. But he set the whole thing up. He purposely disappeared for 3 hours knowing that I consider that rude and also had quick need for the peaches as I was preparing the cake for supper. Then he brings the wrong thing. The thing about PA is that for the most part they know what they are doing and know what reaction they are going to get. They aren't innocent and they aren't victims. Well, I'm digressing a lot here. Your question was if PA can cause the non-PA to act physically and verbally aggressive. The answer is YES. Does it make it right or okay? No. We are still responsible for our actions. In fact, a large part of what brought me to this site was the fact that I had become a person that I never would have chosen to become...angry, frustrated, mistrustful. I had to look at where this person came from. Now that I know, I am responsible to change me. I can't change him and quite frankly after 31 years of this, I'm tired of it. Good luck to you. I suggest you read all you can on this site and on some of the links. Also, check out the recommended reading list. There may be some books that would be helpful to you. There is also a private message board so you can post without fear of anyone reading it whom you wouldn't want to read it. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: marko  Date Posted: 02/10/03  Entered From: 68.69.93.170 Thanks for your complete honesty Susan! The paradox you mention about the control issue really speaks of my situation. Me, in an effort to seek "Control" over the PA behavior of my wife, uses "Domestic Violence" to achieve that means. It wouldnt take much to see how an uninformed outsider might view the situation. I'm not trying to make excuses for my actions, its already probably too late for that now. But its never too late to seek out knowledge. PS-Care to share your recipe for the peach upsidedown cake ;-) Take care Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: KIM Date Posted: 02/12/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 MARKO: Two quick questions... (but first, it is not uncommon for the p.a. to drive people to violent outbursts... Wetzler explains this in his book) usually this is caused by frustration at their withholding, digging in their heels, etc... does it justify our reactions.. no, but once I realized that my buttons were being pushed I had to LEARN how NOT to react.. preventing fueling the p.a. fire... NOwww... to my questions.. I am sure that your ex and you were both in other relationships.. Did you/do you have a history of problems with your anger in the past..... ALSO,,,, sometimes p.a. is situational.. the p.a. reacts like they do BECAUSE they do not feel they have a voice, they do not feel they can stand up to authority (real or perceived)... So my other question is do you know if you wife is like this in all situations where there are problems, conflict, etc.. or just with you....... If she is/was always that way, then odds are that she is p.a. thru and thru.. however, if it is just in your relationship I would suspect that (and this is given the fact that you have always had problems with anger management) that she is reacting to your problem with anger and was intimidatd by you... These things feed off of one another and sometimes it is very difficult to say or to see what caused what, etc.... Personally, I have a much stronger personality than my ex-husband HOWEVER, he is a) attracted to women that have stronger personalities AND, b)he has difficulty standing up to ANYONE.... won't go into the dynamics there.. i.e. him setting up his victimhood by choosing woman who he feels inferior to, etc.. because that is another page.. but anyway.. think about what I have asked you and then let me know either here or by email.. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: marko  Date Posted: 02/12/03  Entered From: 67.193.170.158 I never knew what the term pasive-aggressive meant until describing my wifes actions to the therpist. I always felt that that's just how she was and couldnt believe it when I found out about the disorder. It is an incideous way of compensating for her inability to express her feelings. Her father had told me about it indirectly when we initially seperated. He said to me that she has a hard time telling people what her feelings are. Outwardly she is a kind sweet person. But after living with her, we began to joke about her aggressive ways by saying "behind those twinkling eyes, theres a monster in disguise". As I begin to study PA, I am almost finding an exact blueprint of the way my wife will act. It all adds up. For instance, the technique of always being late. Not big amounts of time, but just enough to really upset you. Constantly, and almost without exception, if we were going someplace, you could count on her to be running late, down to the last minute. And I'm not talking about a woman taking her time in the bathroom to look pretty for you. Now me, I am very punctual. It is always my intention to rather be early than late, It actually upsets me to be behind schedule. Thats how she developed that zinger, a way to get to me. But how was I to know? Why would someone intentionally and on purpose always be late? It didnt make sense because there was never a "reason" for her to do it intentionally. Now, after being educated about the subject, its becoming clear how so many things she does are ways of compensating for her inability to express her emotions. I can also see your point Kim about it be a reactive thing as a result of violence. But thats doesnt seem to be the case. The violent reaction occurs after something sets off the batterer. Wife talks to another man, spends money, gets a job, etc. This is called the trigger. I can recall so many times we would fight due to her NOT argueing, disagreeing, complaining or telling me what her opinion was. I dont like to use the term, but it felt like I had to beat it out of her. She is completely unable to speak up in times of conflict. To answer your inquiry, no, I dont believe her PA was a result of my anger. But I do see your point on how it could be possible. Imagine the two problems existing simultaneously. But I am not here to talk about my problem. I am trying to understand my wifes problem. Why? At this point it really doesnt matter what each of our problems are. But I still want to know. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: KIM   Posted: 02/13/03  Entered From: 168.166.190.219 MARKO: The other question I asked was if you had a problem with your anger in the past.... in other relationships... I beg to differ at what is considered triggers...a trigger would be ANYTHING that a batterer does not feel he/she can control.. i.e. not getting a response.. that is sometimes the ONLY way in which the person being battered feels they have ANY CONTROL not to mention that maybe they feel that no matter what the answer it could mean being abused for it.......and if that "sets off" the batterer than plain and simply it is a trigger.... The reason I ask these questions is that you indicated that you had abused your wife.. and as someone pointed out, a good majority of the folks on this site (and especially the private sections have been emotionally abused for years by the p.a.).... Also, I just had a discussion with someone via email regarding responsibility for our own actions... My ex use to imply that he did certain things "BECAUSE" of what someone else did or didn't do.. For a long time I bought into that... However, one day I thought about how there are people in society that have a code of ethics.. (for example, no one could cause me to Kill another human being, unless of course if was self-defense or defending my child, etc..) or another would be that I would not say sleep with my ex's brother.. see where I am going with that.. Doesn't matter what my ex did or didn't do, that is MY CODE OF ETHICS.. and if I do not honor it then I am in violation of my own standards.. and consequently feel bad and if I do violate them(for some reason) must take total responsibility for them.. No one can MAKE you do anything that goes against your principles.. period.. So this is why I am asking you.. Did I react in anger to my p.a. ex husband.... yes I did... I take responsibility for that.. I never hit him though.. BUT once I learned what I was dealing with, realizing he was pushing certain buttons anticipating that I would react the way that I did... I learned how to not participate in the dysfunctional dance.... we do not play it anymore by the way.. why.. because as long as I played it with him we had a game going.. when I stopped, he didn't have a game mate.... Bottom line is that I realize that you need to understand the p.a. thing.. but what I am hesitant about is using it to somehow justify abuse....which is why I first wanted to know if this was a life long problem of yours or if this never occurred until you dealt with your wife.. that would not JUSTIFY abuse but it would make it a bit better to understand.. Hope you understand where I am going with this.. When I created this site, I created a certain obligation here as well.. I initially created it so that folks who had been emotionally abused (and sometimes physically in some cases) could come to a safe place, discuss their situations, vent, learn and grow.. So it is not all that simple to just say okay you can come in because your spouse was p.a. Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: marko  Date Posted: 02/13/03  Entered From: 68.69.93.170 Message: Yes Kim, your point is well understood. To answer the question about lifelong instances of abuse, the answer is no, but with 2 seperate times where I was assaulted by girlfriends. The first time occured while in my teenage years. I had gotten my girlfriend pregnant, and upon finding out, I thought we should notify her mother who was a full-time nurse, being of the opinion that she could help us handle the situation. The girlfriend reacted negatively to this idea, ran to the kitchen drawer, pulled out a paring knife, and made motion to stab me. I reacted less than gentelmanly to this by hitting her. Ultimately, her mother provided us with the means to take care of the matter. The second event occured while away at college. The girl who I was madly in love with decided to return to her previous boyfriend. Unfortunately for me, she forgot to inform me of this. When I went to visit her dorm room, I saw a beautiful bouqet of roses on her nightstand with a note from him attatched. When I began to hollar at her, she picked up the flowers, threw them at me, and spit at my face, while pushing me out the door. Again, I reacted inappropriatly to this by hitting her. Why would I go into such detail? The last reason I want to say is so others here could sympathize with me. But that would be crap. I have had maybe a dozen girlfriends in my life, only half of those of the serious nature, and no other occurances of violence whatsoever. I have no problems discussing this info and take full responsibility for those situations. But I have been with my wife since just after graduating from college, and that was 15 years ago. All of my abuse happened during our marriage. I know, I know, it was wrong. And to all of the people on this website who have suffered from past abuse, I apologize openly and with integrity. I am trying to explore the reasons for my violence. There have been enough responses to my initial post that have said yes, responding with anger and physical abuse does occur. You also quote a book written by someone who states it is a common reaction. I will ask that all resentment towards an admitted wife-beater be halted at this point. I am not looking for EXCUSES, I am looking for REASONS. I am not in DENIAL, I am not wanting to BLAME my wife, and I am not looking to OFFEND others who use your website to gain information. If you feel my presence here is not appropriate, please tell me and I will stop posting. At this point I have begun to analyze many of the instances that happened for me. You mention the term witholding. That is the passive part of PA from all I have understood so far. If my intention was to control my wife by getting her to express her feelings, opinions and desires, when she is not able to do so, than I consider that to be a trigger. Whether I am controlling and abusive, or she is passive-aggressive, that question begs the age old adage of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Just one last item before this post gets too long. I have started to look back at the times where I reponded with anger. What were the details surronding those instances. You mention "the dance". The pattern seems similar in many of my situations. An arguement begins, wife stops discussing, I get upset, wife continues to withold, I react with abuse. Can I ask some more insight from you? Another trait of my wife is she is TERRIFIED of speaking in public. She would actually tremble and shake if required to talk in front of others. At our daughters baptism, she actually locked up on the alter at the point where it was customary for the parents to ask the other church members to accept our child into the community. Very hard for her to speak under that type scenario. Is this a common trait of a PA? Subject: Re:The silence is deafening! From: Lee  Date Posted: 02/18/03   Entered From: 139.177.224.100 Message: Your desire to get your wife to be a full participant is normal, your tactics to get it out of her are understandable but totally ineffective and end up being abusive. You can't MAKE someone comply with what you want even when it's healthy for them to do so. Like it's healthy to brush you teeth and eat right but you can't force people to do that. It's healthy for your wife to express herself and let you know what is up but you can't force it. These people will retreat even more into their shell. She is deathly afraid of expressing herself and confronting whereas you are her opposite, which makes it so difficult to understand her and makes it easy for you to get so frustrated with her. The problem is PA is kind of like an illness, but one that hurts the person who is caring for the ill. Just think of it this way- if your wife were autistic (PA is kind of like a form of emotional autism) would you still try to force her to be "normal". I do sympathize with your frustation with the being late. Like I said these people do not get mad, they get even. But, they don't admit to anything so there is never truly a reality that you both can agree on. That is why it is so crazy making. Neither of you can agree on what is really going on. Subject: And she's cognizant of her PA as well From: marko  ate Posted: 02/19/03  Entered From: 67.193.119.59 Message: I have been "testing" her lately in our conversations. Her PA ways are so apparent to me, now that I know what to look for. And it appears to me that she is cognizant of doing it! I almost feel like pointing these things out to her. But I know from past experience where that will lead to. Her denying it, telling me I'm nuts, where did you come up with that one, blah, blah, blah. Totally innocent your honor. AVOIDANCE is a term I think applies to that. Is this another PA tactic, not owning your own problem? Subject: Re:And she's cognizant of her PA as well From: Barbara  Date Posted: 02/19/03  Entered From: 66.153.54.73 Message: Marko - it is THE P.A. tactic. Avoidance and not owning? YES YES YES. My PA H loves to tell me I am: not in touch with reality, dreaming, I ought to look in a mirror, I shouldn't talk about myself, I am the PA not him, I need to get a grip, etc etc etc. Don't engage her. You in therapy or a CoDA group for yourself? Subject: Not sure if I understand the co-dependancy theories From: marko Date Posted: 02/20/03  Entered From: 68.69.93.170 Message: I understand things like "enabling" the PA by playing into their gamesmanship. But If I am aware of the PA behavior, and dont involve myself in it, how am I codependant upon my spouse unless I feel I have got to stay with her. My current thinking is that I would PREFER to stay married, but I don not NEED to be married to her. Or am I on the wrong track here? Subject: Re:Not sure if I understand the co-dependancy theories From: Lynnw Date Posted: 02/21/03 Entered From: 198.69.196.17 Message: Marko; I don't think that everyone who chooses to stay with a PA is necessarily co-dependent. Some of us feel that we have to stay until we are convinced we have tried everything and can leave them without guilt. Some of us stay until WE are emotionally or financially ready to leave. We just have to realize at what point it's unrealistic to hope for more. Also, I believe that we SHOULD point out PA behavior when we see it. I've been doing it for some time now. I don't engage in stupid arguements or PA games; I point it out, answer any *reasonable* questions, then drop it (leaving the room if I have to to avoid fighting). It makes life uncomfortable and can open up a hornets nest, but I'd much rather have things out in the open than being quietly miserable. Obviously whether this will work depends on the PA's reaction (are we afraid of them?) and on whether we are more comfortable with quiet tension or open hostility (what a choice, huh?). Subject: Re:Not sure if I understand the co-dependancy theories From: KIM Date Posted: 02/20/03 Entered From: 168.166.190.219 Message: I agree... although I wanted to keep my family intact, and feel I went the extra mile to do so (maybe 2) I knew in the end that it was far healthier for my daughter and for myself to get out of it altogether, feel the pain, put it behind me and move on.... dysfunction breeds dysfunction.. if someone choses to stay in a dysfunctional relationship knowing that the other person is not willing to do the necessary work to get healthy then you have to wonder about your own dysfunction.. sometimes folks stay for monetary reasons, some for the children (but I have a problem with that one if the situation is impacting the children).. and in my case it WAS having an impact on my daughter so whatever fears I had I had to swallow them and do what I felt was in HER best interest....... but beyond that if you choose to stay you have to start looking at yourself and what you are getting out of remaining in a situation such as that.... sometimes it may just be simple.. l. religious, or more complicated; 2.fear of change, 3. don't want to be alone, but when you stay you stay for a reason and it is that reason you need to determine... Some folks on a conscious level think, "this sucks" but deep down don't feel they do deserve better, or maybe feel that they can't do any better... and if that is the case then the first step is to learn to love yourself... once you do that you do not need to seek out external love from dysfunctional people who cannot give you what you are craving.. in fact, in most cases (especially with the p.a.) will go out of their way NOT to... the p.a. loves nothing more than to withhold what you need or want.. that is a p.a. game... "oh, he/she wants to be loved, well, I wont't give them that, I will be in control, I will dangle just enough to keep them hoping.." Subject: Questions to all effected by this From: Wondering Date Posted: 02/10/03 Entered From: 199.174.241.152 Message: I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on the subject of P.A. I have been told that I have this personallity and would like to know something about it. What causes this to effect someone ie are they born with it, does it happen as a child or what. I would like to know the circumstances that develop into this disorder? Anything you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks Wondering Subject: Re:Questions to all effected by this From: KIM Date Posted: 02/11/03 Entered From: 168.166.190.219 Message: HI: there are a couple schools of thought on this.. some feel that it is indeed a true personality disorder, some feel it is a learned behavior, or that it is a combination of certain personality traits coupled with a learned behavior.. I will leave the url to the sitemap below.. Take a look at the various pages (links, p.a. traits) this should help you to begin to understand the behavior.. Another book (although geared towards the woman living with a p/a man) IS "Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man" this will shed some light on the behavior as well.. Good luck to you.. I know in some ways it is disappointing to maybe realize this, but now that you know it has a name, it is an opportuity to do some work and improve your life.. Link URL: http://www.pa2.homestead.com/Sitemap.html

PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE HELPING HAND

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