MESSAGEBOARD ARCHIVES |
PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE HELPING HAND |
.he has some, but not all of the PA traits-I'm confused Posted by Stacy on January 05, 2003 IP:24.162.4.116 I have been involved in a relationship with someone whom I have know for years as a friend. His behavior changed over the last year when the relationship changed from a platonic one to a romantic one. I have not been able to put my finger on the problem and someone directed me to your site. But, while a lot of the information fits, not all of it does. He is well-liked and respected at work but people will describe him as distant.With me, he is kind and works hard to be open about his feelings, but then he backs off as if we never had the discussion. Or he "forgets" saying what I think are significant things. I have thought of this relationship as one with "one step forward and five steps back." He will make plans with me and then not show up and not call, even though when he does come to get me on other times he is punctual to the second. When I ask him what happened, he has a "legit" excuse, and I feel like I am the one who was expecting too much by telling him he could have called me to say he could not come. He never raises his voice and is not openly critical, yet he will say that the things he likes about me (my ability to plan and multitask) are the things that drive him crazy about me. He asked me not to get him a Christmas present, which I thought was silly, and I gave him a small gift. He later emailed me that it made him so tense and pressured that he could not call me all day so we did not get together as I had hoped we would before the holidays. We then had separate vacations (ok and unrelated to the problem) and he has not called. I am not sure how to handle the situation. I feel like I need a strategy but I am not sure that a relationship needs a gameplan. He can tell me he loves me on the phone but then when I suggest getting together, he tells me I am engaging in planning. Yet he will also tell me he cannot believe I feel the same way about him now that things have become physical since he has had feelings for me for years. I don't understand, then, why someone who loves you can't get it together to spend time with you. I am confused. Posted by Lee on January 10, 2003 IP:139.177.224.100 Frank is right. If he is not providing the most basic courtisies like letting you know if he is not going to show than there is something wrong and it's not with you. Having been through the self-doubt, the self-blame, I stopped and asked myself what I was getting out of the relationship (which is thankfully over). All relationships hit occasional speed bumps but if you are questioning yourself, if you find that you are being blamed for overreacting to the most basic expectations (like showing up), then it might be time to take a step back and evaluate if the relationship is worth it. It's SO easy to justify a P.A.'s behaviour to yourself. In fact, they make it easy because if anything is "wrong," the fault will lie with you. Are you wrong to expect that he show up for a date? Are you wrong to expect that he call you when he says, "I'll call you tonight?" Nope. Interestingly, after I dumped my P.A. g/f she called me daily. When I told her that I didn't want to deal with her P.A. behaviour she accused me of always trying to "fix" her and straighten out her life. Nothing could be further from the truth: I just wanted to distance myself from her. Of course, she couldn't accept that I was no longer in her control As Kim has pointed out so many times, live your life under your own terms. If he wishes to get involved in YOUR life, perhaps you can continue from there. If you find that he disappoints you more often than not, then it might be time to move on. Posted by Lynn on January 05, 2003 : IP:24.229.41.84 Stacy; He seems to do some PA things; at any rate, he seems to be backing away from intimacy. PA or not, there are a lot of red flags. Don't ignore them. The bottom line is, as you said, a relationship shouldn't need a gameplan. Posted by Stacy on January 06, 2003 at 10:46:59: IP:24.162.4.116 Yes, red flags, but how do you get to the point that you know it is his inappropriate actions and not you being too demanding or needy. Posted by KIM on January 06, 2003 I am going to leave the URL for the sitemap that this messageboard is linked to.. Read thru the various links, articles, trait pages, etc.. Once you truly understand the behavior you will be able to tell the difference... The number one thing that the p.a. is good at is getting you to accept the blame, turning everything into YOU and absolving them... Once you are on solid ground (they love to play on your sense of fair play, compassion, ability and willingness to evaluate your own behavior) they will not and cannot play that game so easily with you..... Also on the site is a page entitled "Relationships".. please read that over.. I would be willing to bet you that what you asking is nothing more than what is considered normal behavior, expectations, etc.. in a loving partnership.... Also, do note that when someone refuses to give you the basics in a relationship you do become a bit more needy.. and a bit more and a bit more.. that is only natural given the circumstances... Someone once quoted on the site, "it is normal reactions to abnormal behavior." If you would like to participate in the closed door support group here on the site, email me at the above address and I will send you the password... Posted by Stacy on January 06, 2003 at 15:56:45: IP:24.162.4.116 Thanks Kim. What you just wrote was like having cold water poured on me. I am the one working on my needy and insecure issues-until our relationship changed, I was never aware that I was that needy or insecure. The site had a lot of useful information, especially the part about my need to understand what is happening so that I can make sense of it. It already makes no sense. That's why I felt so confused to begin with and began looking for answers. Posted by Stacy on January 20, 2003 at 16:44:40: IP:24.162.4.116 My "story" ended with the Christmas holiday. I missed him so I left a phone message that he received when he returned. He immediately emailed me and I emailed back. No contact for 6 days and I called him. He said he did not see anything warm and friendly in my email that made him feel like it was ok to call. (probably true, mostly a factual summary of the trip). We had a great several hour conversation followed by one the next day. I have detected a great deal of insecurity in his voice; very surprising. But he has been open with his feelings-missed me, loves me, etc. Then, someone who did not know we were involved told me he was seeing someone else. I have no idea if this is true, but I called about 5 days later (we have not seen each other for a month now). We had nice conversation, he said he missed me, loved me, etc., sounded very insecure-had been reading way too much into my messages and decided I was done with him- and we made plans for dinner the next night. I then asked him why several people thought he was seeing a woman named Kathy. First he acted genuinely surprised. Then he wanted to know who said it. I told him I could not disclose that. Then he said they socialized. He wanted to know why I asked and I said the conversation had become comfortable so I thought I would ask. I asked if they were having an affair. He said he didn't understand the question. I said, "were you sleeping with her at the same time as me?" He started yelling that I set him up in the conversation. That the last hour of nice conversation and the friendly emails had been to get him ready for me to ask that question and now he was tense and angry. I asked about dinner and he said he would let me know. I said that wasn't acceptable and he said he couldn't have dinner with me because he felt so angry and set up and tense and it would ruin our time together. I kept asking why he was angry and all I got was that it had been so long since we had seen each other and I set him up into thinking I cared about him with the emails and phone conversations. I have know him for years and have never heard him yell or be this angry. Actually, all of this behavior is totally foreign to me. I told him it was ok to tell me why he was angry and he said, "I hate to be angry because you say something you have to apologize for the next day and I hate that feeling." I again told him it was ok to talk to me and he said, rather meanly, "Don't flatter yourself, it's not about you, it's about how I deal with anger." We hung up and I emailed him the next day but have not heard from him in 4 days. I tried calling too, no response. Now I am not sure if he was angry about the question; angry because he got caught; or why he just didn't answer and I feel more confused and sad over losing more of the friendship. Yet, even as I write this I think how weird it is that he is angry but I still don't know whether he was involved with someone else too. Any thoughts? : Have I discovered the problem? Hello, Last night something happened while my husband and I were out and the words "passive aggressive" suddenly came to my mind so I did a little search when we got home and I am so happy to have found this site! Can I just tell you what happened last night, and just say that it is so typical of all the little "incidences" that have happened over the last 17 years. My husband was driving my van home with the whole family together, when I noticed we were on "E", and needing gas. I asked him if he was going to stop for gas, he said no, so I realized that I had to insist so I said, no, we better stop. There was a gas station ahead, and he pulled up. I asked if he had any money on him, and he said "not much", I said, I have some. I wasn't sure if he wanted me to pump or if he was going to, but then he went to get out, so I got out my door, and said, put $8 (what I had in my pocket) as I headed for the door of the Convienence store. I go inside and tell the lady it will be $8 in gas, and she asks me what number pump I'm at (of course I hadn't noticed) I looked out and saw that there were 4 vehicles at the pump, so I couldn't see any numbers. I said it's the van.... She looked at her machine all confused and said are you sure? and said, "That one is pre-paid". (Meaning, my husband used his gas card and didn't tell me he was going to do so!) He just let me go inside as I said put in $8 as he's standing at the pump, when he knew(Knew? I always wonder, give him the benefit of the doubt) that I was going inside to pay with cash. Normally, this "normal" behavior on his part would have caused a tiff, and me thinking that there is something wrong with the way I communicate, but instead I didn't say a word about it, and just drove home in silence (of course HE didn't say a word---never does) but suddenly in the silence the words "passive agggressive" came to my mind and I did a search when I got home, and this is the site I found. It makes so much sense to me now...the silence, the passivity, the CONSTANT mis-communication, the pessimism (When I said so excitedly during our first Christmas after we married "Oh, I can't wait to have our own Christmas tree", he said (with no good reason, we were both working) "I don't know if we'll be able to afford a tree" Talk about throwing a bucket of water on the fires of my heart. Over the years, I have come to expect Silence at my enthusiasm. He finds it so hard to say yes. If he says "we'll see" then I am jumping for joy. He will very rarely accept anything I offer him...he could be sweating, mowing the lawn on a hot Summer day, and if I bring him a lemonade, he'll say "no thanks" or (jump for joy) "just put it down there". Lately, I have stopped making an effort...and what I am realizing is that I have been the one having a conversation with MYSELF all of these years. I've been prompting the answers, filling in the blanks...But when I stopped doing that, all I have been left with is silence. I read all of the traits on the home page, and what confuses me is it says PA's are not supposed to be very responsible, yet he is very responsible when it comes to work, and doing things around the house. However, If we have a disagreement (or "incident") he will never bring it up again, or say a word about it, or say sorry. Sometimes he will just go sleep in another room for a few days. I am not a complaining type, I always try to get along. My heart has hurt so many times when I have dressed up nicely on a holiday, and he never even says a word, like you look nice. But when we arrive at where we are going, others will tell me how nice I look. It's like I am invisible to him. He is so independent and doesn't need me. Anyway, I had a vision of the future....and it scares me...I can hear him saying just like there's no money for a first Christmas tree, "There's no money to help our kids through college". I have realized that as soon as the kids are in school, I have to get a job so that will never happen. I need to start saving money so I can help them with their future. Thank you for reading this if you got this far....I know from reading your posts that you all understand. Am I right in what came to my head last night...Passive Aggressive?? On a scale of 1-10 how does this rate? What does a sensitive woman do next? Posted by Carol on January 03, 2003 at 20:54:05: IP:67.201.175.193 Paula: I understand exactly what you are saying. My husband did many of the same things. Especially, like the gas incident. When I said "Why didn't you tell me?" His answer was always "You never asked." So infuriating. I was married to him for 36 years with two grown children and just separated. I have taken all I can take. We tried counseling, but it was obvious that he had no intent of admitting he had a problem, but tried to make everything my fault. I gave up! I am so much happier now. I was amazed at how many others that are or were in my situation. This website helped me to realize I wasn't alone. Be sure to read "The Trap." I couldn't believe how well it described my past 36 years. Good luck, I hope you can resolve your problem. Carol Posted by KIM on January 03, 2003 Your husband sounds a lot like my ex.. My ex is very responsible on the job, and would do things around the house (as long as it wasn't something I asked or wanted him to do).. There are many p.a.s where the behavior comes out more in the relationship than anywhere else.. However, there were some things that my ex told me before he was married that strongly indicated that some of this behavior is displayed on his job as well (I didn't have a clue what p.a. was at the time and laughed at him)... but one of the things that that indicate p.a. behavior is the subtle, covert way in which they do these things.. so odds are your husband is doing things on his job as well but they are not enough for anyone to call attention to.. he is probably like my ex and this behavior plays out more on the homefront... I know you are hurt, but I had to laugh at the way you describe some of the things you have recently discovered.. You are so on the mark with all of it.. I remember never getting answers, making assumptions on my own (then to be told that I was thinking for him)... And I would get answers like "You didn't ask" if I said something, "Like why didn't you tell me you were going to pay for the gas with your gascard." And, like in your situation, he wanted nothing from me.. I remember buying him a pillow one day and he snatched it up and said he didn't want a new pillow.. I probably wouldn't have remembered that but it was highly unusual for him to display the tiniest bit of emotion..and I thought it odd that someone would react that way over a pillow.... and like you for a long time I made excuses for the behavior.. then one day it dawned on me that a lot of what he did was on purpose that I was wasting my time and breath talking in circles trying to get him to "understand" anything.. he did understand.. I would not be able to rate your husband.. but he definitely sounds p.a. Check out the link page as well and read the book, "living with the p.a. man" What to do next is a journey you will have to take after you truly understand who and what you have there.. Some stay, some go, and if you are lucky (I guess) you might be able to get him into some sort of therapy.. But all of this depends on you, him, what you think about your marriage overall, etc.. and what you really want for you and your life..... There are some ways in which to manage this behavior that worked pretty well for me (if you email me at the above address I will be happy to share them with you)... Also if you would like to join the support group here on the site email me at the same address and I will give you the password. I started this site approximately 2 and a half years ago because I was just truly beginning to understand about passive aggressive behavior.. and I realized that it had a severe impact on my life and had found that others were as lost, confused, angry and frustrated as I was at the time... with understanding, though, comes clarity, and from there .. direction... Posted by marriedwithchildren on January 08, 2003 IP:216.195.144.93 Thank you so much for your caring replies. I have to admit that I felt totally guilty after writing my post...maybe that is part of this terrible passive-aggressive drama? Anyway, I want to thank you so much. I do feel that I have identified the problem in my marriage, and I do want to make it work. I am curious if it helps to talk to the PA person about their childhood, and reassure them that you will not reject them...I am assuming that that is where the problem stems from... Carol, yes I sure could use a couple of practical ways to deal with PA and diffuse it when it happens... Thank you again for your replies. I have another question...When it comes to sex, are most PA men waiting for the woman to make all the moves?? ---Just curious, since that is the way it has always been for me. Posted by Carol on January 12, 2003 IP:65.238.42.103 I really never found a way short of ignoring his behavior that worked and of course that really didn't work because it left me furious. I would suggest marriage counseling as soon as possible, because if he is as bad as my husband, it is much too complex for you to try to deal with. My husband never would admit he had a problem and to this day still believes it is all me. It was evident to me even in counseling that he would never acknowledge his problems. Your husband will need to acknowledge his problem before he can work on it. I wish you the best of luck in working with your husband. Carol Is he PA ??? Posted by Lynn on January 01, 2003 IP:67.217.181.57 I"ll try to make this as short as possible. I've been in and out of a 3yr relationship with I think is a PA man. My first experience was when his personality changed after a long day boating. All of a sudden he became distant and did not talk to me hardly on the way back to his house. We had to take a bus back and he sat on the bench and put his legs out so that I was forced to sit across from him. A young girl that worked there asked if he would mind sitting next to me because she needed to put the equipment on that bench. He became argumentative with her and sat next to me. I was embrassed. Once he sat next to me, he never even looked at me and talked to the bus driver the entire way home. Once we got to his house, I felt uncomfortable and told him I was going home that I was tired. I did not hear from him for 2 days. When he did call, he accussed me of something so stupid that I could hardly believe it. We did not talk for 2 months. He has critized me for no reason at all. Every time we go out with anybody, I never know how he is going to act. Most of my friends do not like him, He has been rude for no reason. He has given me mixed messages from day 1. Most of the time, he is very gentle and passive with me. I find him to be very selfish. I always go to his house. He does not like to come to my house. He does not want to have any kind of a relationship with my son. When we have a disagreement, I'm always the one that gives in. I have a habit of breaking up with him because I don't know what else to do and feel so hurt with some of his behaviors and action. I know it's the right, but each time I try to get over him, I end of calling him and we start all over again. This time I have alot more information and do not want to go back. I don't have to worry about him calling me because he never has. I know that he is waiting for me to call, but not this time. He is withholding most of the time. Very insensitive, does not care if I cry, he shows no emotion. It's so hard because all I can remember is the good times we shared and the tenderness. We were both very affectionate with each other and enjoyed each other company. Posted by KIM on January 01, 2003 IP:65.239.175.235 LYNN: I am going to leave the sitemap address below so that you can browse thru the site.. It is important to understand what you are dealing with.. He does indeed sound p/a but you will know more after reading more about the behavior... A couple of things that I picked up on is the push/pull which is very common with p.a. people and any others that have intimacy problems... this is where the mixed signals come in.. part of this is done to be in control of the relationship but also because they are afraid of a relationship really working.. one part of them wants it and when you are away from them they feel safe with those feelings and that is when they draw you back in.... once there, they start feeling scared again, start looking for problems so they can create distance again.... THIS CAN GO ON FOREVER..... The other thing I picked up on is that you are living on memories or moments.. Many of us do/did this with the p.a. or others that have these sorts of problems... The p.a. will give you moments, never the whole pizza pie.. (read the page on the site titled: THE TRAP) you live on and for those moments always thinking that something will change and you will get all or more.. after awhile it will cause you to feel and appear very needy....which then causes them to retreat even further... until you get fed up, and the cycle continues... Being with a p.a. was the most frustrating experience of my life. There is no winning, there is no middle ground, there is never that feeling that you have arrived, or that you are a team... The p.a. sets up the situation that way. I always felt as if I were waiting for the other shoe to fall... I don't believe (once we were married) that I ever felt secure or relaxed in the relationship... If after reading the various pages on the site you feel that he is indeed p.a. and want to join the support group on the site, email me at the above address.... Posted by Lee on January 10, 2003 IP:139.177.224.100 I have experienced everything you described with my x boyfriend. Key Key point that Kim made is never feeling secure in the relationship. You never know where you stand with a person like this. Once you leave them and find yourself in a healthy relationship you will be overwhelmed by how supportive that person can be. How it doesn't seem to be difficult to resolve issues and move on. Posted by Linda T on January 01, 2003 Lynn, Your story sounds so familiar! Felt like I was reading my own post. It is very difficult to stay away from these men. It is true that there is a constant draw back to them but the longer you stay away the clearer the picture gets. Try to see it as an addiction at first and take each day away from him as an accomplishment and one more battle won. Read everything you can on this board and get all the suggested books and educate yourself. If you do this, things will become crystal clear and you will realize it his problem, you deserve better and relief that the games have stopped. The push/pull part of their behavior is a life of hell that could not be any worse than living without them. Once you come to understand how the PA's mind works you will be able to let go a lot easier. Again..stay away from him at least until you learn everything there is to know about them. I did not communicate with mine for about 5 months and then decided to see him again just to test myself.. It was such a sense of relief. I really saw him for who he really is and the spell was broken. I still talk to him but just for the satisfaction of being able to amuse myself by predicting his behavior and a basic curiosity of the PAPD. Posted by Eve on January 02, 2003 IP:38.138.58.42 Reading these posts today something just dawned on me. I think there may be many of us who really don't know what a good relationship is. We may read the list that is on this site, but probably many of us have never really HAD a good relationship with a man so we have a hard time really knowing what it is like. That would explain why so many of us hang in so long. The "slot machine syndrome" is definitely one reason we stay too long, but I have to believe most people who were in a loving, easy, flowing partnership with a man or woman would not stay very long if a subsequent relationship was hard, difficult and hurtful. I for one,did have numerous boyfriends. I got along fine with all of them, but I and they were young (18 - 26) and none of the relationships were really serious. My PA (I believe) husband was my first mature relationship and we got married. It seems people who had a great relationship with someone and break up for whatever reason, (a move, too young, don't want to marry and the other does, etc.) seem to be able to dump someone who is "bad news" fairly easy without all this trama. Anyway, just a thought! Posted by KIM on January 03, 2003 IP:168.166.190.219 EVE: I am in agreement with you... And after my 2nd dysfunctional relationship.. I knew that it was time to STOP and take a look at me... After a couple of years of very hard soul searching, and research I came to the conclusion that it is never one factor (usually) but a number of them... 1) I had no good role model of what a good relationship was growing up... 2) I accepted people more by what they presented to me at the time.. buying into that initial attempt to win me over.. ignoring red flags.. 3)And although I knew I deserved better I let others tell me differently, thus doubting myself and thinking that I was being over this and over that, wanting too much, etc .. 4) I, like many other women, felt that "HE" wouldn't treat me that way.. that he just hadn't met the right woman. 5)I made a very common relationship error the 2nd time around and that is looking for the exact opposite of what you failed with in the first one.. The odd thing there is that although on the exterior they appeared different, they really were not........ There were other factors as well that had to do with "fixing my childhood" and so on .... I think the KEY is not that we don't KNOW WHAT A GOOD RELATIONSHIP IS, we do, it is that we are not secure in who we really are or what we really want.. once you are THERE, then no one can convince you otherwise and you do walk a LOT sooner.. I thought I was there after the first one, and had learned to walk away but evidently I still had some more lessons to learn before I really knew and understood myself and what I wanted for my life... Posted by KIM on January 03, 2003 IP:168.166.190.219 Since I started this site, I have seen a lot of other reasons why women stay and there again it has to be insecure and not trusting ourselves... and that is: afraid to be alone... afraid they can't make it on their own.. not wanting to "change" their lives.. or afraid to....not wanting to give up their material possessions or the comfort they have achieved in life.. ... Hey, it IS tough to start over.. so each person has to weigh what is more important to them.... For me it was peace of mind, happiness, etc.. IN fact on the site I have a page of FEARS which I experienced and then what actually occurred.. The point of the page is most everything I feared did not occur, the small percent that did, I handled and actually was not as awful as I had feared it would be...................WHAT I am teaching my daughter now and I think it is the saddest thing I see here and elsewhere is when young girls (in 2003) are still putting their lives TOTALLY in men's hands.. not getting the skills or education they need, marrying too young, and having babies immediately and back to back.. they literally put themselves in a position where they cannot leave... And why.. because they either bought into the fairy tale, didn't have the confidence or was too lazy to get a skill to take care of themselves before they got into these situations.. Even if you have a beautiful relationship, that man could die, get hurt, anything where you would be responsible for you and your children.... I felt so sorry for one young lady that wrote in here, after she explained her circumstances I thought "this person is really between a rock and a hard place".. It is very sad, and I want to shake the younger generation and tell them not to make the same mistakes as the generations before them.... THIS IS YOUR LIFE, don't hand it over to someone else so easily and so completely.... Posted by Eve on January 03, 2003 IP:38.138.58.42 Kim, Thanks for replying. I am a little nervous about the finding someone who is the complete opposite of the PA, only to find they are very much alike. How can you determine this? Do you think just spending lots of time with the person (new relationship) in many different situations and events, family gatherings, walking a flea market, picnics, shopping, the beach, etc. will in time give you a true picture of what the person is really like? Or can they be and seem very easy to get along with and willing to discuss differences and solve them so both of you are happy with the solution and then change to be controlling and angry after you are really serious??? I also worry that I may take things that are not red flags as red flags and may be very quick not to give anyone a chance!! Your insight on both these issues please!!!! Thanks! Posted by KIM on January 03, 2003 IP:168.166.190.219 HI: first let me say that the p.a. was the opposite.. I thought I died and went to heaven when I married him.. I fell for the facade hook line and sinker.. and it took a lot of work for me to be convinced otherwise.. even after I knew about the behavior..I still couldn't believe that this nice person was doing any or all of that.. p.a.s are very GOOD..... First, I can pick out a p.a. 10 miles away now.. it doesn't take too long after talking to one to see it once you truly know the behavior.... But I think more importantly TIME.. and a BELIEF IN YOURSELF is what will help us determine if someone is good for us or not.. No one is perfect, and I think dating someone for a long time, being in different situations with that person, seeing how they react when there are problems (in general and in the relationship)..believing in what you want for yourself is OKAY and okay for you to stand up for... When you see that the other person can understand and respect this and not take it personally, not be offended, or have to get back at you for it or see it as a blow to their own self worth.. those are the things that I look for... Also, watching how this person treats others (that is a tricky one with the p.a. though.. sometimes they are great when it comes to giving to others) but the ones close to them.. and more importantly how do they treat themselves.. Someone cannot have respect for you if they do not honor and respect themselves first... Are they willing to take responsibility for their mistakes or do they need to always blame others.. remember whatever you "view" will eventually be applied to you as well (I missed that one big time) It was all his ex-wife's fault and eventually it was all mine as well.... Also, another big one is not being needy.. being happy alone will prevent you from making another mistake.. I see people who rush from one relationship to another.. trying to get from these folks what they should be giving to themselves first..(self love & self respect) then they would not need so desperately to end up with the first person that comes along and buy into their games...only to continue the cycle... I also remember to enjoy the moment, what God has given me right now, and whatever else happens, whatever else is suppose to happen will happen.. People spend too much time (including myself sometimes) projecting to far into the future and not really looking at everything that they are given right now.. maybe right now it isn't a great relationship but have one with yourself, your friends, your children...All that is ever promised to us anyway is just the moment we are in... Take a look at the HOW/WHY section of the site.. most of that section is my own personal journey.. thru the fears, what I did to find happiness again in my life..on the rebuilding page... it does works.. I still have my ups and downs just like everyone else, but I try to keep it all in perspective.... Posted by Eve on January 03, 2003 at 15:03:37: IP:38.138.58.42 Kim, thanks for your reply. My H is a lot like the "married w/ children" husband. A real stick to the marriage vow no matter what, the children are what this is all about now type. I do not have a computer right now, but I hope to get one soon. When I do, I would like to join the private discussion board. I'll e-mail you and get a pass word when I get my computer. Thanks for everything you say. It is WRENCHING to break up with these guys. Bye for now, Eve. : Ex-fiance Might Be PA? Posted by MIKE on December 30, 2002 at 11:21:39: IP:205.242.228.39 Eight years ago I began dating a girl who I met on the Internet. She ran into problems with the university system admins, I came to her rescue, we became friends, and then began to date. The two of us had an incredible number of similar interests, we rarely disagreed, and we never fought. We did everything together. Our friends actually got to the point where they questioned where the other was if they encountered one of us individually. She is 7 years younger than I am, and never really dated. The two of us met when she was 17 or 18. In the last year, we got engaged, bought a larger house, invested in extensive remodeling of the new house, and suddenly she expressed that she was unhappy and left me. She has expressed things that cause me to believe that she is PA (that I am an angry person, that she desires the freedom to do what she wants to do, that she feels I am controlling her, that she needs to find herself, etc.). Many of her actions also seem incredibly self-centered and selfish -- mutual friends have even made this observation. My questions are: Can I regain this relationship? If I am a controlling or overly assertive personality, is it unhealthy for us to be together? How long can it take for her to discover the independence she is seeking? I find myself being judgemental of her behavior when we're together, because she really is doing some horribly mean things to me, to friends, and to herself. Does anyone have any advice on how to break yourself of this behavior when dealing with a PA? Posted by KIM on December 30, 2002 IP:168.166.190.219 I guess I do not understand your question, "Does anyone have any advice on how to break yourself of this behavior when dealing with a pa?" are you talking about what the p.a. sees as controlling, assertive, etc? The first thing I would do is to look at the site (which this board is a part of and I will leave the URL below) and check out the various pages, i.e., links, P.A. Traits, etc.. so that you can familiarize yourself with the behavior... to see if she is truly p.a. or if you are too controlling, etc.. if she is indeed p.a. you will know so after educating yourself on the specifics of the behaviors.. The p.a. is extremely good at getting you to assume all of the blame for the problems in the relationship, it is very common for them to accuse others of trying to control them... so check that out... Have you been told by others that you are controlling? also remember that when people are unable or unwilling to give to you what is needed in the relationship you do become needy and attempt to control the relationship in order to get what you need.. in short, it is actually their way of controlling you and the relationship.. by withholding... 2ndly, I think that if she is gone, and has indicated that she wants to be free I don't understand what you are saying about "regaining this relationship" In other words, "How can you get her back?" that would depend.. first thing I notice about folks is there inability to accept reality.. Is she playing games with you, do you get the impression that she wants you back.. if she is not indicating that she wants to get back with you in a sincere manner, then I would accept that it is over and move on.. If she is playing push/pull games (people, including p.a.s, who are afraid of intimacy are very good at this game) and if that is the case, you need to walk away.. they can play that game with you for all of your natural life never coming to any decision.. How long can it take her to get the independence she is seeking.. a month, a year, 10 years or maybe it is just her way of getting out of the relationship.. Since you did not give any specifics either about what she indicated to you as controlling, or what you feel is self-centered it is almost impossible to say which is which, and what is what.. Do you have anyone you can present your case to with the specifics to see if you are contolling or if she is self-centered? That is what I would do... your post is a bit too vague to give any kind of real opinion.. AND, I guess my last observation is, if she is doing all of these horrible mean things to everyone, why would you want her back? You might suggest to her that she needs professional help, especially since you indicate that she is doing these things to herself as well... I do not know the particulars of your situation.. but she was very young when you all started dating, and maybe she just wants out realizing this herself.. I find it curious though, that neither of you saw any of these behaviors in one another until recently.. has she been telling you this all along and as she has matured realizes that she cannot tolerate it for a lifetime? Have you noticed p.a. traits in her all along? In the end, if these are things that the two of you find intolerable it is far better to realize this now then to wait until after the marriage and have it end up in divorce... : Hello, my name is Bonita, and I'm in love with a PA man. Posted by BONITA on December 27, 2002 IP:63.169.49.252 First time poster but I've been here for three days straight, reading all of your posts and printing them out to put into a binder. I am so stunned, overwhelmed and grateful that I have found this board. It's given me what I so badly needed, an explanation as to why my boyfriend is the way he is. Not resolution, not an excuse or a way out, but a REASON for the madness, which sometimes is all you need. You can't fight an enemy you can't identify. Even with cancer; once you know what it is, you know what you have to do to fight it. Well, I truly don't know what I'm going to do with him. I am at this crossroad where I have to decide whether I want to fight this beast of a disorder and try to have the man I truly love in my life, or to let him go, save a HUGE chunk of my sanity and move on, hoping to meet someone I could love a fraction as much as I love my current guy. Strange thing here is, so many of the symptoms and behaviors described in all of these posts fit him to a perfect T. I keep having these breathtakingly painful flashbacks to times his PA behavior erupted and drove me insane. I just remembered a time he insisted I come with him to buy suits because he so wanted my opinion on which ones to get. I remembered him asking me in the past to pick out his clothes and then completely going against what I said and wearing what he wanted anyway. One time I really jumped on his case about it. I warned him, strictly up and down that when we got to the suit store I don't want any more of those antics. Of course he did it anyway, so covertly I wasn't even in tears until we left the store. My God he is good. When we got to the car we started talking about it. He acts like I am out of my tree, making it up, seeing a problem where there isn't one, oh my god, oh my god, he is so PA. This is the first time I'm writing about it, it's seeming more "real" now. I've always been amazed at how calm he stays when I cry, get angry, or flip out. It's something to behold. I may install x-cams in my house and get this behavior on tape and add it to my "file." I am building a 3inch thick 3-ring binder with all of the printed information I found on the net, including many of your posts. I am also going to create a list of incidences, like the one I mentioned here about the suit shopping, and add that under the tab called "PA Incidences." I have this grandiose idea that I am going to delicately work my way up to giving him the binder in a few weeks, but meanwhile dropping subtle hints and pointing out behaviors before I bring out the big binder. I am half dying of curiosity to see if he accepts or denies it. Because he is not a complete goner yet. He has made no hiding of the fact that he has no emotions to share with me, cannot say he loves me, cannot do or say romantic things, on any level. I have been starving for affection (for the past 7 years in my loveless marriage) and for the past year I've been with him. The only thing that keeps me with him is my love for him and my constant work on my self-esteem that suggests that at times "maybe it's me." And I am not completely blameless here, I cannot, and WE cannot, completely point the finger at the PA man and absolve ourselves of blame, because we are human and possibly provoked an occasional fight, disagreement, said a nasty remark, did something HUMANLY not-so-nice, but they have made an art form of their retaliation. I can accept responsibility for occasionally being a b*tch, having PMS, being cranky when hungry, maybe not ALWAYS having sex when he wants to (I said no maybe twice in a year due to illness) possibly being somewhat unreasonable or retaliatory, and I've accepted all that and more, and have told him that I can identify when the issue is me being one or any of those things, or him being a JERK and using unacceptable behavior. There is a difference between human behavior and unnecessary roughness, unprovoked attacks and velvet gloved abuse. I am ready to take on this beast because it's not going to take the man I love away from me. I will try to give myself three months to see if a change can be made. I think that is ample time to see improvement or not. I have let things go in the past and not fought for what I wanted or believed in, but this time I am going to fight with everything I've got, and information-wise and emotional health wise, that's A LOT. I totally support all of you and will be here to listen and offer any advice I can offer. Since I have been down as low as can go and am now climbing my way out (swinging I might add) I would like to feel as much a part of this group as possible and be here at any time you might need to talk. Good luck, be tough and wish me luck too!!!!! Posted by KIM on December 28, 2002 HI Bonita: I am the creator of the site (which I will leave the url to the sitemap below) from which this messageboard is a part of... Your story is so familiar (there are probably 20,000+ posts archived throughout the site that could have been carbon copies of your story (including my own)... Even after I copied and gave exerpts from the book, "Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man" all he said was, "even if it is all me, there isn't anything I can do about it." case closed... No you are right we do need to take our share of the responsibility.. the problem is that the p.a. has the most uncanny ability to rile you to a state of anger without so much as a word, then it appears to be all you.. And after beating yourself up for months or years it is a huge relief to discover that it isn't all you.. that IS part of the p.a. game to get you to assume all of the responsibility because your ANGER is obvious.. It is the ole "cause and effect"... the cause (the covert, subtle thing he does or doesn't do) isn't obvious but the effect (your anger) is...so it is only natural (until you are aware of the game) that you take the blame... I would ask that you read the page "THE TRAP" which is listed on the sitemap of this site.. This is how we get caught up in these games and how we remain.... I truly wish you luck and maybe there is hope for your relationship, but I started this site 2 and a half years ago and to date I believe there is one success story.......... Let me propose this.. You say this is the love of your life.. I thought the same thing.. But when I broke it down, (and he did have qualities that I admired and look for again..not the p.a. mind you) but think about what he withholds from you.. Do you think that is why you "love" him so much.. Do you think that if he gave it freely you would feel this overwhelming love for him? Just food for thought.. Because think of a healthy relationship (check that page out on the site as well) see what occurs there, and I would bet that the p.a. isn't coming to close to the mark.. What they do is they control the relationship, how: by withholding, making you feel unworthy, insignificant, and much more.. this keeps you hopping, trying to please, to be what he wants and needs.. once you see that then you understand that there might be a possibility that this is NOT LOVE but control... Take a look around the site, and if you would like to join the group, email me at the above address... THis messageboard is reserved for newcomers (such as yourself) but if you want to continue you can do it in the private group or there is an open guestbook on the messageboard page where you can post without the password.. Posted by BonnieJ on December 27, 2002 IP:172.195.108.240 Instead of printing out things to show him I would advise that you print out your own post and read what you wrote. You said you have low self esteem but in your own words "He has made no hiding of the fact that he has no emotions to share with me, cannot say he loves me, cannot do or say romantic things, on any level." What could you possibly get on an emotional level from someone who is uncapable of fulfilling your needs?? You jumped from a bad marriage to another bad relationship. I would suggest that you break up with this person, get counseling and enjoy being single. Take a bubble bath, eat ice cream out of the carton, do something which makes you happy. I am sorry if this came out harsh I was just trying to be honest with you Is he or is'nt he PA Posted by So In Love on December 22, 2002 IP:205.188.208.139 My boyfriend of 6 months now, is P.A. or very insecure. Some history; I was married when we met, we were very good friends, acttually we were best friends. Shortly after I left my husband we got together and we both realized that we have almost everything in common. And we both have the same ideas of living. Everything seemed perfect. To keep it short, we have had a few conflicts and now he insist that I am going to leave him. One day he seems okay, and shows how much he cares, and the next he throws harsh comments at me. We are,[ or use to be] very open with eachother.We seem to talk on circles now. Some critical information... He lost his Dad when he was 15, lived with friend whos parent's were frineds with his parent's. Joined the Army at 18 years old. Lost his Mother in his early 20's.He is now 35, has a 10 year old Daughter. He is a Hell of a man with alot of tension of owning his own bussiness,[with my three children plus his own].He tells me that I do more than my share to help with both home and bussiness. Plus have a part time job. But everyother day or so his insecurity rears it's ugly head. Sometimes on the spur of the moment or when he happens to think of something that raises his tention. He blows, then he acts like everything is fine. This is a regular occurance. Granted children always come with tention, he handles that well 99 percent of the time. Is he just being a Man thats scared of our relationship and affraid to admit it, or is he alittle on the P.A. side. Posted by KIM on December 22, 2002 Kind of hard to say.. A good many folks show some p.a. traits.. and probably a good many of us use them on occasion.. It is when It becomes the only way you deal with problems in your life and the only way you can operate that one might be labeled a passive-aggressive personality..... I don't get that he is p.a. from what you described... Sounds like he is extremely afraid of abandonment or that he is using that to maybe not make a committment.. Either way, he is having some problems in that area.. I would sit down and talk with him.. tell him what you have stated here and lay your cards on the table.. I would not go into this thinking that this will change, especially without communication.. And yes, having chidlren and having a business and a multitude of other things going on in life can make all of us a little tense on occasion... but if that is the case then he needs to find ways to reduce this and not take it out on you all so much. : grounds for divorce? Posted by linda on December 22, 2002 IP:64.12.96.39 Is Passive Aggressive behavior a clinical psychological problem as say bi-polar or manic-depressive, or even schizophrenia? And can it be used as a grounds for divorce? Is it hard to prove? Posted by KIM on December 22, 2002 The jury is out on that right now.. Some in the mental health community feel that it is not a disorder in itself so much as it is related to a couple of others... However, if you take a look around the site (which this messageboard is part of) you will see that what it does to the other person (especially if they do not know what they are dealing with) can be quite devestating.. I cannot tell you how many emails I get regarding this and the support groups on the site indicate the same... Take a look around the site, read all that you can and present it to your lawyer if you are looking in that direction to see what he/she has to say.. I will leave the link to the sitemap below Posted by Janet on December 25, 2002 IP:24.144.37.108 It depends on your state. In Arkansas, it is not grounds for divorce. Physical abuse, adultery, habitual drunkeness are grounds for divorce. Speak to an attorney. If your husband will consent to a "no-fault" divorce, it will be easier and cheaper. If you have to start in on the emotional abuse grounds, it will be difficult to prove and expensive. Maybe your spouse won't fight this and it will be easier for you both. If he is going to fight it, take your time and do the groundwork. You are too emotionally drained to do this quickly, (probably). Posted by Linda on December 26, 2002 IP:64.12.96.39 Thanks Janet. You are absolutely right. I am an emotional mess. My story is 24 years long. And it was dysfunctional from the beginning. I won't go into it but because of his mother's extreme dysfunction and emotional leverage she hangs over my husband, this vicious cycle has continued to another generation. I will begin therapy next week and pray my older children seek it out as well. The key word is children and that is still what they are. Although they have been exposed to "normal" behavior through outside contacts, they think this household is dysfunctional because two people just don't see eye to eye. Ohhh, they're just as confused by their father's antics as well, but are now in that emotional trap that I thought I was shielding them from. I now realize I was powerless. I have done things for him that I thought would never be possible from a strong willed, independent person like myself but I did it for the family. Boy was I wrong and its coming back at me threefold. I am a 46 year old woman (stayed home like a "good" wife should/he denies that he insisted upon it/his mother never worked outside the home as well) who is going through all the things that naturally happens to a 46 year old woman, menopause, empty nest...blah, blah, blah. I cannot put up with the hypocrisy any longer, it is turning my stomach and it sickens me. I feel I have pacified for so long and faked it myself just to get by that I am becoming HIM. God help me. Thanks for listening folks. This is helping. I have cried wolf for too long, close friends have left me as well due to my complaining but in their eyes never doing anything about it. But because of this site, I am now able to put a "condition" to my "condition". |
