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PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE HELPING HAND
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: I feel so alone
Posted by Dawn December 18, 2002 at 19:42:46:
IP:66.76.242.137
have you ever known anyone without any friends? zero, none to speak of. because Ive always been this way, even as a child, and yrs of knowing a person i cant seem to connect with anyone! I want relationships but i find it hard to talk (panic) and no one understands me.

Posted by Ann on December 22, 2002
Alternatively, Dawn, it may be that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with you. Having friends is NOT mandatory. Indeed, many great inventors and philosophers had few if any friends. For most people, friends come and go. That is normal. Along the way, you may meet people whom you relate to and friendships follow. Don't force things, be yourself.
Once you find YOURSELF (as best you can, it's a life long task ;-) then you are more able to see the TYPE of person that you are attracted to be a friend. Perhaps the 'panic' you feel is simply because you don't relate to these particular people and have nothing in common.
You are not alone in that.
IMO however, and this is important, the most important friend you can ever have, is yourself.
Please also bear in mind that this time of year makes EVERYONE feel lonely.
Best wishes for a happy Christmas

Posted by KIM on December 19, 2002 at 06:45:32:IP:64.158.172.253
Dawn: this is a disorder, from which I understand there is help for..Go to your medical doctor first, explain this to him/her to see what the next step is.. I am not sure you even need to see a psychiatrist or anything.. let them tell you..

Posted by Dawn on December 19, 2002 at 09:33:52: IP:66.76.242.43
i have bigger problems as well, my neice wants to go live with her dad (my brother) she lived with her grandmother(had stroke)from age 2 til 8 then came to live with my husband & I who have no children. MY Question- should I allow her to go live in an envirment that i know is not healthy for her? because she HATES me so much, Im not sure how much more abuse I can take! (plus I have no-one to talk too) except our therapest, who doesn't seem interested.

Posted by dawn on December 19, 2002 at 09:37:01:  :66.76.242.43
Im sorry i forgot to mention my neice is 12yrs old now. and her brother whos with us as well is extremely happy.

Posted by KIM on December 19, 2002
I don't know if I would feel comfortable answering that.. It would depend on the circumstances, how unhealthy the environment is, etc... She is entering her teenage years.. she probably hates everybody... Sometimes a good dose of what one wants is all it takes to straighten them out but on the other hand, if she is not mature enough or responsible enough she might enjoy the atmosphere too much and even though she "hates" you right now, I think you would feel a lot worse about yourself later on if you let her go and she ended up in trouble from the unhealthy environment.... I don't know if I would take her "attitude" too personal right now... but these are questions only you can answer... If you look deep enough you will find the right answers...

Asking the right question...
Posted by Blank Frank on December 18, 2002 at 01:57:10:
IP:24.80.253.116
OK, I've been fast-tracking the P.A. thing (well, in the greater scheme of things, not really), but something has dawned on me: we need to ask the right questions.
The question is NOT, "what is YOUR problem," but "what is MY problem."
To put this into context: Rather than put the onus on my significant other, I put it on myself. "Am I happy in this relationship?" "Why am I so frustrated all the time?" "I love a challenge but is this the sort of challenge I love?" "What possible good could come from this struggle?" "Why do I feel that this relationship is a struggle rather than a nurturing, growing experience?"
If you cannot find a positive answer to any of the above, do what I did yesterday, GET OUT!
A P.A. is akin to a spouse-hitter: it just won't quit as long as you enable it. Get out. And if you care enough to get back in, do it on your own terms with NO concessions...i.e. ZERO tolerance.
I'm free. I was under the influence of a P.A. for almost a year (yeah, I know that some of you have been doing it for many, many years) and when I asked myself if I was living my dreams, the answer became clear: NO.
I'm free and smiling 
Thanks, Kim (in particular, but not solely), for providing a forum which helped me to gain some insight into this stagnant time of my life

Posted by KIM on December 18, 2002
FRANK: many of us here, came to the same conclusion.. and got out... you asked EXACTLY the right questions... what is amazing is that you answered them SO quickly.... most of us toy around with these questions for awhile if not too long.. one of my big ones was: what am I getting in return for all of twisting myself into a pretzel stuff.. answer: not a lot, and defintely not what I want or need in a relationship.. took me two more years (and a lot of games) for that insight to really connect so that I could walk away for good... Congratulations
Posted by Linda on December 22, 2002 at 10:22:22: IP:64.12.96.39
You're right on the money there Frank. Kudos to your early eye opener. After 23 years, my pretzel burnt a long, long time ago and I finally have gotten the courage to put a stop to it. I am seeking a divorce immediately. Unforunately, my three children 22, 19, and 15 have been put through the dimentia. I pray they seek the counseling that we in this family so desperately need.
Good Luck, Linda

: Is he passive aggressive or am I imagining things?
Posted by Bluelighted on December 17, 2002 at 21:44:33:
IP:207.194.244.1
I found this site and message board today after reading a book about reading people, and I am really curious as to see if this man that I know is P.A. I'll try and keep this short....
It all started when, in August, I worked at two week temporary job, one that I work at every year. This happened to be my 7th year. Anyways, the structure at this job changed this year and I found myself working closely with a man that had previously worked in a different department. Pretty much from the start, we played attraction games back and forth where we would stare at each other or make idle chit chat the occasional time. We were together in quite a few group gatherings, both informal and formal.
Needless to say, I sensed a mutual attraction between us and I guess we stepped up the flirting and all that, but since I knew I was only going to be there for 2 weeks I was kind of bummed when it ended. I ended up asking him for a hug on the last day, and told him that it was really nice working with him, to which he said the same thing and told me to come back and visit one day.
So, by the luck of the draw I managed to contact him online and we corresponded back and forth, which (I was the more aggressive one here) led to me seeing him at his work (he still works there) in a public setting.
We then talked some more online and I found out (asked)that he lives with his "ex girlfriend" still (but I live with my ex too until Jan) and I think I saw him about 4 or 5 times since August in these public settings.
The reason that I think he might be passive aggressive is because (I am shy), I managed to ask him online a few times if he wanted to go out with me sometime. He would always be so attentive to me when we talked in person, but he always avoided the feelings between us. It eventually felt like I was playing a game with him, I would feel like I was getting somewhere with him and then he would retreat and get distant.
I know he might still have issues with his ex, but why would he not give me a straight answer about it or us? He would also have hot and cold moods where I had no clue what he was feeling. He would always seem to "beat around the bush" when it came to answering things about his feelings.
Also, on the last time that I saw him in person, which was about 3 weeks ago, we had a really good time laughing, flirting, standing beside each other in a very public setting. I was so happy that I was in a daze. After that he backed completely off and now I haven't heard from him in a week. It was like he left when the going was getting good.
He would also have these spells where he would seem so happy to talk to me in person, but then he would retreat for a while just when I was happy. It got frustrating.
Ok I have gone on long enough, I hope the above makes sense and that someone could help me shed some light on my situation. If you need more details I can give them too you. Thanks

Posted by KIM on December 18, 2002
I don't know if he is p/a or just not sure what he wants to do.. He could be hiding something (sounds like it) and there are many people out there that enjoy the flirtation but if you try to take it a step further they back away.. for various reasons.. like I said, he may be hiding someing (more to the ex than meets the eye) or he is afraid of taking it any further because of intimacy issues, because he is not ready,etc.. Also, sounds like he doesn't want to close the door completely, and for some, it is just easier to not answer at all than to give a truthful answer...
I think I would leave it alone.. the next move is his.. but if he pulls back again after he initiates something then you would do best to walk away completely..... Trying to have any kind of relationship with a person like that is opening yourself up to a lot of heartache and frustration....and not worth it..

: PA boyfriend
Posted by Pat on December 15, 2002 at 10:27:18:
IP:205.188.208.139
Unbelievable. I've been reading messages today and they confirm what I've just begun realizing - that my ex-boyfriend, the one I'm pineing over, is a PA. He's an old boyfriend from 30 years ago and we hooked up again 6 years ago. Lived together. And many times I thought I was crazy, several times I became violent, he moved out one day when I was at work without a word.
Anyway, 2 months ago we had dinner, he paid much attention to others by leaving me sitting at the table several times. I said very quietly when he returned, "I wish you'd pay as much attention to me as you do to others." Although I left phone messages on his cell the next day, he has not returned my call and I haven't heard from him since.
I have been so tempted to call him again. Today I read several messages on your site and realize even more that he is definitely PA. I wish I could help him and I'm having trouble letting go of that wish.
I'm sure he knew how much I wanted him to love me and for our relationship to work. But, he did a lot of withholding, withholding, withholding.
Sorry for all this verbiage, but I guess I need encouragement to stay away from him and move on.
Pat

Posted by KIM on December 15, 2002  
First of all I see that you are a rescuer..... You cannot rescue him.. You can bring to his attention that you feel he participates in this behavior, then it is up to him to get the help he needs to make his life better.
2ndly.. read the page here on the site entitled "THE TRAP" you have fallen into this game and you want what this man does not have the ability to give you.. This type of person plays you like a fiddle, trying to make you believe that if YOU do things differently they will give to you want you want and need... This is a game of control for them.. and they do not have the ability to give ANYTHING to you but they cannot let you know that so they continue doing things to make you think that the reason they aren't is because of YOU...... I will leave the URL of the sitemap below so you can read the information provided on the site.. this will help you understand the dynamics of what is going on here... also if you would like to participate in the closed door sessions, email me and I will send you the password.

: Thanks for you help, still struggling
Posted by justme on December 15, 2002
IP:64.12.96.39
Thanks so much for your wonderful, helpful words, tee and everyone. It means a lot to know that I am not aloone in this and that there are others who have been through and continue living with a PA person.
Here's my latest. Hubby had plans to go participate in his hobby today, Saturday. Knowing this, I had plans of my own, of course involving the kids, to go and visit with a girlfriend (my best friend to be exact). Part of our plan was to workout together. Following this kids and I were to go to a schoolmate of my son's familie's open house party. First H tried to sabatoge my plans and keep me home with him this AM. I, being tired of him doing that since I now can recognise it, went about my plans anyway. The only twist was that I encouraged him to come to the party. He didn't really know anyone and I only knew the host, hostess and one other couple. Within the 30 minutes of being at the party, I couldn't find him. My daughter searched for him and came in to tell me our car was gone. Meanwhile the hostess is asking me where he is and here I am with the kids, no purse, no cell phone at a new acquaintances home. I phone him on his cell and he says that because we laughed (my daughter mainly) at a deodarant mark he had on his shirt that he left. He didn't say one word to me, just left, mind you. Soooo he tells me to call him when I'm done at the party and he'd come pick me up. Meanwhile, people at the party are wondering what happened. So what do I do, what I always do, lie and say he felt ill. I was sooo embarrassed, what else could I say, oh he left because he's an ass and can't hold a conversation with people unless he works with them. Earlier in the week we went to dinner with his boss and 3 other couples, and he sure was a conversationalist even though he'd never me the other wife's.
Anyway, I am so tired of this type of crap with him. And he wonders why I don't want to be intimate. I am literally counting the days until I see my therapist, Monday, thankfully! I really just need to vent. Thanks. Any feedback, tips on how to handle this, etc. would be appreciated.

Posted by KIM on December 15, 2002
Stop making excuses for this man.. that is called enabling.. the embarassment is his if he walked out of a party, not yours... the more you play into the p.a. and his/her antics the more they will play them... Learn to shake your head and walk away from these immature games.. The problem arises when we "expect" more from them.. Once you really understand what and who you are dealing with you will not be surprized, angered (too often or too much) or frustrated.. they love to frustrate you (that is their payback for what they feel you have done to them)...... I will leave the URL to the sitemap below so that you can check out the various pages of the site so that you can understand exactly what is going on (especially read the link page and the P.A. Trait pages) and if you would like to participate in the closed door sessions, email me at the above address.

Re:So confused..please advise.
Posted by Gez on December 14, 2002 at 07:15:39:
IP:195.93.34.8
Hi group,
I'm writing because I am confused and hurt. I've been searching for answers and came across this forum with the hope that maybe I could find an explanation for whats been happening to me for the last twp years. My story is long, I will try and be brief.
Seven years ago I lost my mother to Cancer and had a hard time dealing with it. I was prescribed a med that is now known to be highly addictive and causes distressing withdrawal symptoms. I joined an on-line support group for support during which time I became friendly with one of its members. We started e-mailing eachother and you can guess the rest.
I wasn't serious about him initially but he became involved very quickly and told me that "if it came to it, he'd move to be with me" I found this surprising at the time but nevertheless continued our friendship until 6 months into the relationship I too became emotionally involved. He was such a wonderful, caring and compassionate person and I felt incredibly lucky to know him.
As he started his taper from the drug that he was on (all members of the on-line group are tapering from these addictive meds), he strated to become a little distant and withdrawn and asked me for space but assured me his feelings were strong and hadn't changed for me. I agreed, I knew he was sick and it was a difficult process. It toook him 10 months to come off but furing this time I noticed periods of hostility and a "no care attitude". I started to see a side of him that I didn't really like becasue it was such a contrast to the way he was initially. He found it a struggle to go to work every day and would constantly complain about his work colleagues and especially his manager. He would go on about this particular woman who he said would always "suck up" to the manager and this angered him for some reason. It turned out that he used to go for long walks with this woman but he said there he never had a relationship with her although he felt that she was still attracted to him and he guessed that she would like things to be different, yet he was always what seemd to me to be a little jealous of her for paying attention to the manager. I dont even know why I told you this bit of the story, I guess I'm wondering if he lied about that situation.
Anyway, he was always so attentive to me, made me feel loved and important in his life and all he wanted to do was be with me. He would constantly talk about his father and how his father abused him emotionally and criticized him constantly. He blamed his father for everything and especially the fact that he hadn't made progress in his life academically. Anyway, he started to be hostile towards me and sometimes abusive, very very self-centred and selfish. I put this down to withdrawal from the drug. He told me that he suferred with depression and anxiety and he'd had problems on and off all his life. I wish he had told me this from the beginning but by this time after a year I was hooked. He ended the relationship a few times but then came back after a few days explaining that it was the depression and it was all the confusion relating to it. I understood and still supported him although by this time my own health was beginning to suffer.
Our relationship was very up and down as far as his moods were concerned and the effect he had on me. Communciation was difficult, he was sensitive and I had to be careful what I said incase I upset him or he would say I stressed him and end the relationship.
I found him to be envious of people who did well in their life and he was always saying how his father held him back and in all his 42 years he never progressed. He lives in an apartment with a shared kitchen and bathroom and he said he hates being a waiter and all he ever wanted to do was work for himself because. he couldn't be a "team player" and wanted to be his own boss. When we first started talking he said he'd saved a lot of money in order to start his own business but then he lost it al because business wasn't doing well at the place where he worked and was dippijng into it to pay for his bills and debts that he'd ocurred.
In July this year he was fired from his job. He kept telling me that if he didn't change his attitude at work that he would eventually get fired. He was in a terrible state when he lost his job and he leaned on me heavily for support but at the same time he started showing me lots of affection again and love. He now wanted to spend his life with me and that I was a wonderful woman and that we had something very special to hang on to. He got me looking up immigration rules and scanning the papers for work that he could do over here. After all the uncertainty, I asked him if he was sure this is really what he wanted. I asked him not to raise my hopes again. He said he was positive and this is what he wanted to do. I was due to start my teacher training in September and I felt that if he let me down I would just fall apart and not be able to take up my teaching programme. He told me that he was counting on me to do it as I needed to support him while he was over here looking for work. The only problem is that its illegal to look for work here unless the both of us got married and we talked about this and he liked the idea.
Over the next two weeks he started spending time with his parents and told his father of his intentions to come here to England and his father felt it was a good idea as he'd always hated where he lived anyway and it would be a new start but also pointed out that he would "never see things through". As he started spening more time with his parents he again became distant and withdrawn and on the 13th August, he ended the relationship saying that he thought it was best. He then said "do you realise that you've been speaking to a mentally ill person for the last 18 months?" He told me not to call him the next day. He then said he was thinking about giving up his apartment and living with his parents until he was well. We didn't speak for a few days and then I saw a post to the group. It was a desperate post so I contacted him again oferring my support. I still desperately cared. He told me he couldn't live with his parents, not in such a small town and there was no work and this seemed to be depressing him more. He wanted his father to pay for his bills to give him breathing space until he was strong enough to find work. He called me up and asked me to speak to his father so I could try and persuade him to pay for his bills and make him understand that about benzo withdrawal was what was causing him to be so sick but his father always wanted him to see a psychiatrist. After speaking to his parents they agredd to pay his bills and seemed like nice people. My ex boyfriend then thanked me for doing this and again told me that he had always loved me deep down.
He eventually went on Remeron an anti-depressant which enabled him to function again and eventually he got another job. During the period of him losing his job I spent spo much money on phone bills and sent him food in the post. I did everything I could becasue I cared for him. About the second week working at this new place he again became withdrawn. I hadn't spoken to him for 5 days and I called him and I then asked him how he was. He said he was doing good. Then I asked him why he didn't want to talk to me...He said " well, we're not in a relationship anymore, I am not in love with you, we have no future together, so whats there left to ta;k about?" I was devastated. I became angry obviuously. When I next called him he said I argue with him and he blames me for stressing him so he doesnt want to talk to me. I find this is an excuse and I'm now left wondering if I am to blame for some of this. I feel so traumatised.
Earlier this year he was seeing an emdr therapist for his childhood problems but she then thought he may have OCD and sent him to a specialist. He told me he went and was tested but he doesn;t have it. His therapist wont see him unless he sees a psychiatrist and he wont do this becasue he thinks everything is being casued by withdrwal from the drug withdrawal.
I'm left wondering if it still is the withdrawal or is it his painful childhood or has he some underlying personality disorder that the drugs were covering up.
There are so many things I could say but I can't fit it all in. I do feel that he has controlled me and emotionally manipulated me. He has treated me badly but I've made allownaces becasue I wasn't sure of the real cause. I feel so used and cruelly mistreated.
The on-line support group that we both belong to has a membership of 1,700 people. A third are women. I'm concerned that he may repeat his actions and hurt someone else like he did with me. I hate the thought of that happening. I am so confused and woul welcome any guidance and advice. Imknow this mail is long and thank you if you have read this far.

Posted by KIM on December 14, 2002

I am not exactly sure what advice you are looking for? A way back in... If so, NO, NO, NO.. believe this man when he tells you he is mentally ill.... He has big time problems, problems you cannot fix, problems you want to stay away from!!
Did you ever even meet this man? I am not sure about these computer romances at all.... first both of you were in a group where you have addiction problems, and from what I understand about recovering from addiction, two rules, NO romance at all, and DEFINITELY NO romance with another person who is going thru the same recovery... There is a reason for that, a big one, as you found out.... people going thru this, first cannot concentrate on anything other than the recovery, they have to do a lot of work to recover....
I think it was okay to be this man's friend, I think it was okay to be supportive but that is as far as it should have gone.... Be glad you got out of this when you did.... Please do not be a rescuer, and do not wear your heart on your sleeve...there was no way for you to know this man given all of the circumstances and be very thankful you did not marry him..
As far as the other women.. that I don't know... what can you say.. anything that you do would look like sour grapes and I think that anyone who gets involved in an online romance especially with someone recovering from addiction should be aware of the pitfuls that come with it.. How many folks like him do you think are out there in chatrooms... MANY I bet.. and in someways it is no different than the real world.. you date, sometimes it works out and sometimes you find that for whatever reasons it does not and SHOULD not.. that is when we move on and find someone else to date...
I am sorry that you got so deeply involved with this man.. but I would just back off completely.... You said your heart went out to him in another of his online pleas.. what do you think he is doing.. he knows what he is doing, exactly what he did to you... except he wants someone new this time... .... bottom line.. forget him.. be thankful to God that you didn't go any further.. move on in your life.. believe me it is not your job to fix this guy.. this is up to him and God


Posted by Gez on December 14, 2002 at 08:47:35: 

Thank you for your reply Kim. I guess I wanted to hear that it was not my fault and I wasn't to blame fot the way things turned out. I was wary of getting too involved with him because of the addiction problems. However, it doesn't excuse such cruel and hostile behaviour. I was hooked on these meds and although the recovery was painful, I never treated anyone badly. I am a reasonably stable person although I will admit that recently this whole experience has been somewhat de-stabilizing. I'm not looking for a way back in, but I did wonder if he had some kind of underlying personality disorder that could explain why he behaved the way he did. I guess I was hoping that someone here could tell me, but maybe its not that simple.